The armour thread
- Thread starter Phrossack
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Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Long term soldiers can't spend anything marching through Gaul.
On the contrary, the Roman army in particular was notorious for its camp followers, which clung to the back of just about every army before the 20th century.
Indeed. My point isn't really asking why the Romans paid cash, but why medieval rulers didn't. Even a soldier raised and mobilised only for a specific campaign is going to want some money.
Well, you'd have to look at what the composition of the armies were, and how were they mobilized and for what lengths of time. Mercenary companies, which I believe were part of the mix up until at least Napoleon, had to be paid. And probably specifically in cash, for the most of it. Nobels had their close retainers, but that was more or less a long term commitment, in both directions. The lord would pay the upkeep of them through their lives, and maybe reward them with some land after long service. But because all of the upkeep was being paid by the lord, and the retainer had no alternative employment, there may well have been little to no money changing hands. And then there was conscripted serfs and peasants. And they were kept in line with force and threats, rather than their loyalty being hired.
So the question becomes, what other form of military organization was common in that era where the soldiers worked mainly for cash?
So the question becomes, what other form of military organization was common in that era where the soldiers worked mainly for cash?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
The reality was that the Romans both paid cash and land, as well as Medieval rulers - just that the Romans more often paid cash (after reforms of Marius, they only paid land to retired soldiers), while Medieval rulers more often paid land or privileges. But we have sources indicating, that they also often paid cash.
Among authors who write about this (the fact that Medieval rulers often also paid cash) is Philippe Contamine.
That practice was especially common in Italy, France and England and mostly during High to Late Middle Ages (12th / 13th - 15th centuries).
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Well, first we need to make sure we're all talking about the same thing. I've been talking about post-Roman, pre-Crusades Europe. Maybe pre-pre-Crusades as the end point. Dunno what year to offer.
In those years, soldiers were often paid not just in land but in largesse, especially the knights on retainer. So I suppose those soldiers weren't hired so much for a monied salary but for a combo of land-income and a share of plunder. According to Lucy Hughs-Hallet a good Christian ruler was one who captured and then distributed more booty from his enemies, at least during the time of El Cid anyway (so pretty late in my time frame).
Perhaps there was so much hoarded coinage (and, perhaps, ultimately deflation) that plundering a castle was worth years of luxurious living for a loyal soldier?
Ah, I see, that makes a lot more sense. I'd got the impression that somebody was saying that soldiers started being paid in land once their contract was done instead of being given tangible goods above and beyond their upkeep while actually in service. Evidently this wasn't actually the case. I suppose, if soldiers were allowed (officially or not) to keep what they took, that would explain the tendency of pre-modern forces, particularly cavalry, to chase after an enemy's baggage train rather than actually taking part in the battle, as notoriously happened to Prince Rupert at Naseby.
Naseby was "pre-modern"? 
Thought I might get picked up on that - history within the somewhat less scholarly framework of military lectures usually divides into pre-gunpowder, pre-nuclear, and the rest, which I was loosely grouping as 'modern'. I'm not actually sure at what point the tendency stopped, but I would guess that it was probably after 1918.
jlvfr
King
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
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On a side note, about shields: I'm often amazed how few people think the shields could be used in a ofensive manner, to strike at the opponent's face or legs. Most people just see it as a moving wall, and think the center ball/spike/funy mace is just for decoration...
In the days of large (ie, larger than a jouster's) shields, the boss chiefly served to provide somewhere to mount the shield's grip, as well as giving it extra strength to deflect blows to the centre. Effectively, it meant that you could actively 'punch' your opponent's weapon, therefore blocking it with much more force, rather than having to just put your shield in the way and hope for the best. Actually hitting someone with a large shield would have been rather difficult, I think.
Phrossack
Armored Fish and Armored Men
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The shield boss also protects the user's hand from arrows and thrusts that would otherwise penetrate the shield a fair bit. It makes a pretty useful weapon, too. I imagine that a sufficiently shield bash with the boss would hurt a lot, could crack ribs, and would leave your foe briefly open to attack.
Anyway: Wow, have I let this thread go. I've just been forgetful and lazy, really. I'll post something for sure either this weekend or next week, since I'll be on winter holiday. I'm not really sure which period/type of armor to cover, though. I'll think of something, but any requests? Medieval plate? Mail? 16th- and 17th-century plate and cuirasses? Ballistic armor from WWII to the present? Armor from the 18th century to around 1900? Something involving helmets?
I'm not too knowledgeable about a lot of areas of armor, like the manufacturing process, Bronze Age armor, or Japanese designs, but I'll have to do a bit of research for informative posts, anyway, and I could learn something in the process.
Anyway: Wow, have I let this thread go. I've just been forgetful and lazy, really. I'll post something for sure either this weekend or next week, since I'll be on winter holiday. I'm not really sure which period/type of armor to cover, though. I'll think of something, but any requests? Medieval plate? Mail? 16th- and 17th-century plate and cuirasses? Ballistic armor from WWII to the present? Armor from the 18th century to around 1900? Something involving helmets?
I'm not too knowledgeable about a lot of areas of armor, like the manufacturing process, Bronze Age armor, or Japanese designs, but I'll have to do a bit of research for informative posts, anyway, and I could learn something in the process.
Recently i learned of a local group of re-enactors which is featured in some BBC documentaries and a couple of movie projects. They are called "Koryvantes", after the mythical Koryvantes (Κορύβαντες
which were hoplites who danced in full armor as the apogee of the festivals to Rea (argued to be linked to Cybele). The cult of the Koryvantes was centered in Rhodes and Crete, as well as (later on) in Athens, where they had a temple. They were often joined by the Kabeiroi, who became part of the dancers, the two sons of Hephaistos.
The cult featured hoplite-armored people dancing with spears and shields, in a dionysian manner.
The group making the re-enactions, which also creates its own props:
which were hoplites who danced in full armor as the apogee of the festivals to Rea (argued to be linked to Cybele). The cult of the Koryvantes was centered in Rhodes and Crete, as well as (later on) in Athens, where they had a temple. They were often joined by the Kabeiroi, who became part of the dancers, the two sons of Hephaistos.The cult featured hoplite-armored people dancing with spears and shields, in a dionysian manner.
The group making the re-enactions, which also creates its own props:
Helmets could be snazzy, same with recent ballistic armor.
But I'd be good with anything, honestly.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
What about this one from Henry II of France?:You wanted something like this?
Spoiler :
The level of detail on the breastplate is amazing but I am not sure whether the helmet would provide only protection or also sight...
Henry II of France,Too much detail. Looks like some sort of skin disease. It shows real bad taste IMO.
Yeah, with that armor on he was practically asking to get killed in a freak tournament accident.
so much Old World bias in this thread
USA#1
Is that a dung-beetle armor?
