History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VI

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We can't rule out the possibility that the Mongols would have been able to conquer entire Europe.

Hence I said "unlikely" and not "impossible"

How so? Do horses only feed on grass? As far as I know they do not even mainly feed on grass (at least European horses did not - and Mongol horses could also eat something different than grass - oats, corn, etc. - even if they were accustomed to eating mostly grass due to their steppe environment).

It makes it much simpler to have open pasture for horses especially if you are travelling with something like 3-5 horses per soldier.

Additionally, forests, marshlands, and assorted rough terrain aren't horse-friendly. When the Mongols were invading southern China, cavalry was suddenly much less useful than against, say, Khwarezm.

If you slaughter local population, you will have enough grain left for your multiple hordes of horses...

This is what they were doing in Hungary.

What did Mongol horses eat in China - rice ??? They had to eat something there. China has plenty of mountains and not many steppes, AFAIK.

Hence it took them seventy years to complete the conquest of China.

Even Korea took the Mongols a full three decades to subjugate, and only then as a vassal state.

The real answer was that it simply wasn't going to happen. Europe was too far away from the Mongol court, and no one there could be arsed to go conquer it. Finishing the conquest of Southern China, far closer and far wealthier, was a much higher priority.

Batu Khan and his successors of the Golden Horde did in fact care enough to muse about conquering Europe now and then, but as it happened other Mongols soon became a more pressing concern, and the Golden Horde spent most of the rest of the century at war with the Ilkhanate.

Didn't we have the same discussion 6 months ago?

We have this discussion every six months.
 
Following up on this for part V

#1084
SS-18 ICBM
Temporal Mechanics

What can be considered the first civil war in recorded history?

There seems to have been one at the end of the First Dynasty of Egypt ca 2925 BC, from which Hotepsekhemwy, the founder of the Second Dynasty emerged victorious. Details are understandably lacking. It's possible Narmer's or Menes' might not have been the earliest unification of Egypt, just the first one that took, in which case we would have to know why that unification fell apart.
 
The factor that really made the Mongols dominant was multiple horses per man. The further you get into Europe, the harder it is to feed that. So their advantage was lost.

And multiple men, too: European knights usually had more than one horse, even Roman cavalry usually had a pair. Something so easy to emulate could hardly have been the deciding factor between obscurity and such phenomenal military success, after all. You're right, though, to pick up on the length of supply lines, and I would venture that they ran into the same problem as Napoleon. When the line of supply is too long to be effective - it would have taken many months to ship things like food, weapons and fresh horses from Mongolia - the army needs to sustain itself in the field, which only works in a densely populated area which can be easily plundered. At the time of the Mongol invasion, Eastern Europeans would have been too spread out to feed a huge army of the size of the Mongol hordes.
 
Remounts are virtually essential to any sustained cavalry operation. :p
 
Is there a historical background why Frances UU in Civs usually is the Musketeer, or is it all down to Dumas novel?
 
Remounts are virtually essential to any sustained cavalry operation. :p

Absolutely, but it's theoretically possible that, in certain country, a commander might expect to gather his replacement horses, like his other supplies, largely from forage and plunder. Also note that modern armies do not routinely carry more combat vehicles than are expected to be used in battle.
 
I don't think horses are really all that comparable to modern mechanical devices in this regard.

However, horses probably do require training to be bred for war, so I don't think getting them locally is a wise decision as a starting plan (even if it later does become a necessity). Can you think of any historical example where it's mentioned that they used plundered horses for their cavalry? I figure if it's mentioned anywhere, it would be in an account of Hannibal, but I'm really open to any example involving conventional forces.
 
My two cents on the Mongol issue: the heavily-fortified, cavalry-unfriendly nature of Europe alone couldn't stop the Mongols. Look at southern China; it was very heavily fortified and was full of rivers, mountains, forests, rice paddies, and pretty much everything short of tsetse flies that is known to stop cavalry. The Song kept the Mongols from using the rivers for a long time with a powerful river navy, and had a pretty massive army. The fortified cities of Xiangyang and Fancheng helped the Song control the Han River, and they were tough nuts to crack. Thick walls, large garrisons, protected by the river, and they were able to send troops and supplies to each other by boat.

So the Yuan created a navy of their own to cross the river and deny its use to the Song. They used counterweight trebuchets to damage Xianyang's walls and terrorize its people and garrison into submission, and they got Fancheng to surrender by promising its governor the right to rule Xiangyang if he switched sides. Sure, southern China was expansive, heavily fortified, difficult terrain for cavalry. That's why it took the Yuan decades to conquer it, and six years to take Xiangyang and Fancheng. But they adapted and persisted, and used Chinese and Korean infantry very heavily.

Europe, like southern China, was very heavily fortified, and was generally poor terrain for the sort of large-scale cavalry operations that were the Mongols' way of life. Even the Hungarian puszta could only support around 200,000 horses. Considering that each Mongol horseman generally had at least five remounts, this was an issue. Of course, this didn't stop them in China; they just used Chinese infantry as their main force.

I'm not suggesting that a Mongol conquest of Europe was likely. Europe was further away, too fractured for the Mongols to simply make themselves leaders of a pre-existing political structure, and it had a much more militant and aggressive culture than the Song. Any invasion on the scale of the Yuan invasion of the Song would have met a few crusades sent its way, and perhaps Catholics would have been less willing to serve those they saw a foreign heathens than the Chinese, who didn't have the same kind of religious opposition. Europe would have been very difficult to conquer.

Of course, I'm also not saying the Mongols never could've taken over Europe. If they had been as hell-bent on Europe's conquest as that of southern China, and if the Mongols had struck in the days of the khanate's unity, they might have had a chance. Any clever Khan would naturally have played European rivals against each other, promising lords and kings the right to rule new territories and fiefdoms if they sided with the Mongols. Additionally, the Mongols were religiously pretty open-minded, and a clever Khan might have tried to appear interested enough in conversion to win the support of the Pope. It sounds absurd, but Grand Duke Gediminas of Lithuania did exactly that, and got Pope John XXII to occasionally restrain the Teutonic Order, and even won the Pope's blessing for a combined Polish-Lithuanian raid on Brandenburg. Historically, various khans proved quite willing to accept Buddhism and Islam, a fair amount of Mongols were varying types of Christian (mainly Nestorian), and they had pretty good relations with the crusaders in the Levant and the Armenians. If a full-scale invasion of Central Europe were to be followed by the establishment of a breakaway Catholic khanate in Europe, the Mongols could have done pretty well. Of course, if the khan's Catholic and marries European royalty, and the vast majority of the population, soldiery, and nobility are various Europeans, it's debatable whether these conquerors of Europe are really Mongols at all.
 
and perhaps Catholics would have been less willing to serve those they saw a foreign heathens than the Chinese,

But Rus was Orthodox not Catholic.

And during Mongol campaigns in Hungary and Poland they already were supported by some troops recruited in Principalities of Rus, as is testified by several sources.
 
I don't think horses are really all that comparable to modern mechanical devices in this regard.

Of course not, but that means that it's theoretically possible to plan an operation whereby every lost tank stays lost, so it should be possible to do it with horses.
 
In China, the Mongols had the ability to draw on a ready source of scads of manpower to fuel the conquest of the Song. Where, exactly, would the Mongols get the sheer troop numbers to sustain major operations in Europe? Russia? :)lol:)
 
and perhaps Catholics would have been less willing to serve those they saw a foreign heathens than the Chinese,

But Rus was Orthodox not Catholic.And during Mongol campaigns in Hungary and Poland they already were supported by some troops recruited in Principalities of Rus, as is testified by several sources. Actually chronicler Jan Długosz gives credit for Mongol victory in the battle of Legnica to one of their Russian / Ruthenian soldiers, who spoke Polish and used his ability to speak Polish to incite panic among one of units of the Polish army (which worked).
 
But Rus was Orthodox not Catholic.And during Mongol campaigns in Hungary and Poland they already were supported by some troops recruited in Principalities of Rus, as is testified by several sources. Actually chronicler Jan Długosz gives credit for Mongol victory in the battle of Legnica to one of their Russian / Ruthenian soldiers, who spoke Polish and used his ability to speak Polish to incite panic among one of units of the Polish army (which worked).

You said that already, and I already know that the Mongols conquered Russia. But I was talking about a hypothetical Mongol invasion of Central Europe. Where the people aren't Orthodox.
 
Anyway, new question: I've always been interested to why and how did Ethiopia is Christian, and through the years, how did it manage to keep that status?
 
And multiple men, too: European knights usually had more than one horse, even Roman cavalry usually had a pair. Something so easy to emulate could hardly have been the deciding factor between obscurity and such phenomenal military success, after all. You're right, though, to pick up on the length of supply lines, and I would venture that they ran into the same problem as Napoleon. When the line of supply is too long to be effective - it would have taken many months to ship things like food, weapons and fresh horses from Mongolia - the army needs to sustain itself in the field, which only works in a densely populated area which can be easily plundered. At the time of the Mongol invasion, Eastern Europeans would have been too spread out to feed a huge army of the size of the Mongol hordes.
From what I understand, the Mongol armies didn't really operate by supply lines.
 
Anyway, new question: I've always been interested to why and how did Ethiopia is Christian, and through the years, how did it manage to keep that status?

Ethiopia was evangelised by Frumentius, a Christian who was shipwrecked there in the fourth century and did so well at the royal court that he became regent. He visited Alexandria to ask Athanasius to send a bishop to the Ethiopians, and Athanasius responded by appointing Frumentius himself and sending him back. The head of the Ethiopian church, the Abana, would be sent from Alexandria for centuries even when the Ethiopian church was basically self-sufficient.

In around AD 500 a new influx of Christians arrived, the "Nine Saints", probably Monophysite refugees, who initiated a new round of preaching and conversion. As a result of this Ethiopia became (and remains) Monophysite.

Ethiopia managed to remain Christian, basically, by not being (successfully) invaded, which it achieved for centuries in virtue of its mountainous location, and after the sixteenth century with the help of alliances with European powers. But it's important to note that it was never entirely Christian. It had large Jewish and Muslim populations, as well as followers of indigenous religions for many centuries. Like most African countries, Ethiopia was always a more-or-less unified alliance of different tribes with their own different cultures.
 
Anyway, new question: I've always been interested to why and how did Ethiopia is Christian, and through the years, how did it manage to keep that status?

The maintenance of an independent Kingdom of Aksum and later Ethiopian states, which remained relatively powerful inland until the European Christians arrived as significant players in the region offsetting Islamic power. Today you will find a clear divide between West (highlands where the Christian state remained strong) and East (lowlands where there was significant Muslim presence) with regards to the dominant religion.

Why this is the case, is a matter I can't say much about. Although it is interesting that Muhammed apparently provided some protection to Aksum because it accepted Muslim refugees after they were expelled from Mecca
 
Why did the Qing army became so ineffective after Qianlong's reign? During the reign of Qianlong, the Qing military proved itself during the Ten Great Campaigns, winning great victories and showing great skills mostly, with the exception of the Burmese war. So, how did this army became so ineffective only a few years later?
 
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