Hitler hated Jews because in fact he considered them superior not inferior to Germans

Domen

Domen

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I have a theory, that the Nazis in reality considered Jews as superior to Germans. Only the Nazi propaganda presented them as inferior to Germans, in order to increase anti-Semitism within the German society. I expressed this theory on Historum Forum on pages 5 and 6 of the thread linked below:

Page 5:

http://historum.com/european-histor...olshevik-coup-5.html#post1706461?postcount=41

Page 6:

http://historum.com/european-histor...olshevik-coup-6.html#post1707042?postcount=51

And my final (so far) conclusion of that discssion, has been expressed in this post:

Domen said:
Francois le Francais said:
The Nazis believed, that it was "Jewish conspiracy" which caused the German defeat in WW1. They considered Jews as very influential. I dont think so. Jews were just a scapegoat... Everybody knew it was the Emperor and the Army that lost the war...
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Indeed - Germans (including also Austria) lost WW1 due to their own indolence.

But they blamed the Jews (who were just 1% of entire population of Germany - even though a very influential one percent) for their defeat, because it was very self-justifying to blame someone else for their own failures, especially if they could blame someone as influential as Jews.

In other words - by blaming the Jews, Germans were healing their own deeply rooted inferiority complexes.

One of those deep German inferiority complexes was their strong belief that they were a superior peoples and a world's leading nation, which was contradicted by brutal reality, in which Germany did not have as much colonies and as much "living space" as other great powers.

Particularly British and French Empires were the source of German inferiority complexes. But also the USA and the huge Russian Empire.

German people believed that Russians did not deserve their territorially huge empire, because they "were unable to manage it properly". Germans claimed, that Germans could allegedly manage each square mile of territory more efficiently than Slavic (including Russian) and Jewish people.

This is why the "Lebensraum" plan during WW2 included the deportation of "badly organized" Russians from European Russia to Asia.

So German anti-Semitism was about healing their complexes and explaining the cognitive dissonance they were experiencing between their own excessive belief concerning their self-importance (i.e. most Germans falsely believed that they were "special" and "superior" to others) and the reality (in which Germany did not have such an important position as selfish and excessively nationalistically proud German people wanted).

As the result of their excessive pride, looking down on others and silly beliefs, Germans started another WW, lost it, and got humiliated again.

German jealousness towards Britain, France and Russia and their bigger empires, was also among the factors leading to WW1.

This is only such a psychological approach to the causes of the initial rise and the subsequent collapse of Nazi Germany, of course.

From the political and military perspective, those events were much more complex.
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There is also this significant analogy with the Armenian Genocide and with the Pontic Greek Genocide - both organized by Turks:

Domen said:
Why would anyone want to completely eliminate anybody just because he considered them "worse"?

Black people were considered "the worst race" in America before 1860s - and that's why they had a status of slaves there.

Hitler did not want to turn the Jewish people into slaves and to treat them as worse - he wanted to eliminate them.

Turkish genocide of Armenians and Pontic Greeks was also caused by the Turkish belief, that those groups were wealthy and influential.
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What do you think about these considerations (but please read pages 5 and 6 of that thread on Historum before responding here).

Let's discuss.
 
the guys that you discuss with in the forum seems like a jerk who doesn't even know what he talking about, wonder how you stand talking to him.

I thought I read long time ago a book by Max I Dimont, A jewish militant I don't know if one also can consider him as historian, IIRC he believe that the conflict between Aryan and the Jews was a long conflict of power hegemony that start since Rome. And he see the relation between Aryan and Jewish as a race as some sort of rivalry. I think pretty much like what you said, although I don't remember correctly, I bought his book years ago (like 7 years ago) in a second hand book shop, and after I read it my friend borrow it from me, and as I remember he never gave it back again, but yea I already count it as a gift for him.

Quite interesting book even though I don't 100 percent agree with the author.
 
haroon said:
the guys that you discuss with in the forum seems like a jerk who doesn't even know what he talking about, wonder how you stand talking to him.

I thought I read long time ago a book by Max I Dimont, A jewish militant I don't know if one also can consider him as historian, IIRC he believe that the conflict between Aryan and the Jews was a long conflict of power hegemony that start since Rome. And he see the relation between Aryan and Jewish as a race as some sort of rivalry. I think pretty much like what you said, although I don't remember correctly, I bought his book years ago (like 7 years ago) in a second hand book shop, and after I read it my friend borrow it from me, and as I remember he never gave it back again, but yea I already count it as a gift for him.

Quite interesting book even though I don't 100 percent agree with the author.
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Would it be possible for you to find the book on Google Books and paste the other works cited by the author?
 
greeks and Armenians were richer than their Turkish neighbours , enough to see each other as the threat instead of the Turks who just provided the context to engage each other . This sentence is merely to add something instead of a debate who started what , what was the extent and noticing some supposed fixation to fix something about the manliness of the CFC with a perceived avoidance of blaming the murderous Turks . And way ahead of people in examining the "Turkish roots of the Holocaust" or something in some deleted post ...

it will be way cooler to blame the Holocaust on us too , just wait a couple of months or something ...
 
It's kind of weird that, in critiquing Nazism, you accept their basic premise that "German" and "Jew" are exclusive and opposed categories.

It's strange how many people do that. Some of them Jews. It's depressing.
 
Traitorfish said:
It's kind of weird that, in critiquing Nazism, you accept their basic premise that "German" and "Jew" are exclusive and opposed categories.
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I don't accept it in relation to modern times. Now things are different (but now number of German Jews is also much smaller than back then). In the 1930s, it was the case. Every Jew in Nazi Germany was easily distinguishable from [other] Germans because they had to wear Stars of David on their clothes.

Some of them Jews. It's depressing.
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No more depressing than any other nation who wants to be distinguished from other nations.

Former Polish President Lech Walesa recently proposed the merger of Poland and Germany into one state. :)

I did not see enthusiastic reactions to that rather silly proposal on neither side of the Oder River.

The same is the case with Jews, who want to be seen as Jews. Especially those who moved to Israel.
 
Traitorfish said:
It's kind of weird that, in critiquing Nazism, you accept their basic premise that "German" and "Jew" are exclusive and opposed categories.

It's strange how many people do that. Some of them Jews. It's depressing.
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Maybe I'm wrong but I'm quite worry if this statement also for me, because I don't felt that way, I just do a speed reading on what Domen said in that forum, and I agree in the point that the Nazi is not necesarily see the Jews low or subhuman, as I quote some of the Jews as you acknowledge also see the relation between the Jewish and Aryan as somekind of rivalry of hegemony, and I thought what the Nazi doing is to wash out what they consider to be their dangerous enemy or rival, or what ever you can called it.

Of course that view is depressing, as I the one who believe sincerely that all human come from one man and woman are all brother in the terms of humanity, and the view of race rivalry it is depressing as it is delusional, oftenly narcissistic (like Max I Dimont) and untruth. Just want to straight out that point ;)
 
Kyriakos said:
So your premise is that hitler hated and wanted to kill everyone who was superior to germans?
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He wanted to neutralize (either by killing or by using other methods) everyone who was - according to him - a threat to German domination over Europe. I don't think that Hitler considered Poles or Russians as superior to Germans, but he did consider them as a threat to German domination. However, his policies towards those people were different than towards Jews. He wanted to kill Polish elites, but in case of ordinary people he wanted to Germanize some of them, turn some of them into slave labour, deport most of them to the East, and kill large part of them - but not all. He wanted to take revenge on France for German defeat in WW1.

Towards various Slavic nations his policies were not the same in each case. He did have some Slavic nations as his allies (Slovaks, Croats, Ukrainian nationalists, etc.), he did not inflict much harm upon the Czechs, who surrendered without resistance. He targeted the Poles, because they resisted him.

In case of Russia and Russians Hitler's policies were inconsistent. He was capable of signing friendly agreements with Russia to achieve his temporary goals (like the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact), but eventually he invaded Russia. Hitler believed that the Soviet Union was the eastern strongpoint of Jews. He did not associate that state only with Russians, but also with Jews. Yet he was capable of temporarily maintaining friendly relations (or even alliance) with the USSR.

Of course he was pretending that he was friendly towards Stalin, because he needed time and secure eastern border to defeat France, etc.
 
I don't think that your idea is particularly groundbreaking. The conclusion of the usual anti-Jewish tropes the Jews are superior in terms of cunning, but inferior in terms of morality, spirituality and other stuff. Something like 'Jews are much more capable plotters and web-spinners then the Aryans, and, in this sense, "superior"; but their true inferiority and sub-humanity are revealed in their utter amorality and selfishness'.
 
Lone Wolf said:
I don't think that your idea is particularly groundbreaking. The conclusion of the usual anti-Jewish tropes the Jews are superior in terms of cunning, but inferior in terms of morality, spirituality and other stuff. Something like 'Jews are much more capable plotters and web-spinners then the Aryans, and, in this sense, "superior"; but their true inferiority and sub-humanity are revealed in their utter amorality and selfishness'.
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So the Nazis considered themselves superior in terms of morality. This makes sense but it only shows how distorted idea of morality those people had, since they were actually among the most immoral bastards in history. If they had been moral, they would not attribute a feature to millions of people basing on their beliefs and then apply "collective responsibility" to all of them. But this is what racists do - they attribute features to groups rather than to individuals.
 
Implying the Nazis could think coherently. :rolleyes:

On a serious note, I actually remember a thread somewhere why racists hate people that they think they're inferior to them: if they're dumber, weaker, etc. than you, you have no reason to feel threatened by you: it's the people who are superior to you who racists should hate.
 
Right-wing racists hate ethnic group because they think their group should be dominant. Nazis are no exception to this: Their goal is to establish ethnic dominance over Europe. Any race that is an obstacle to it is the enemy, whether they are seen as superior is of little importance.

Hating ethnic groups for their perceived dominance is almost entirely a left-wing thing (and yes, there is something like left-wing racism and nationalism too). Chinese democracy advocates in the late 19th century would often identify Manchu people with autocracy and called for their annihilation. The French revolutionaries considered regional identities in France such as the Bretons to be part of ancien régime and banned expressions of any regionalist identity. Pro-Palestinian New Left groups such as the Revolutionary Cells often would incorporate some implicit anti-semitism. The rub therein lies that calling for equality could sometimes lead to racism - even if it is arguably self-defeating when looked upon from a ideological perspective - because some ethnic groups are identified as being inherently part of the elite.

I think the latter views were actually quite alien to Hitler and his inner circle. There are definitely some Nazis who espoused a left-wing perspective to Nazism and based their anti-semitism on financial dominance and pseudo-egalitarian nationalism, but all the other Nazis pretty much wanted to destroy the Jews to enable Aryan supremacy.
 
Let's clarify, that what Lone Wolf wrote still implies that the Nazis considered themselves inferior to Jews in terms of skills and all these "practical things" which are useful in life. They considered Jews inferior just in terms of morality. But their own sense of morality was so distorted, that in fact it was flipped upside down.

Hating ethnic groups for their perceived dominance is almost entirely a left-wing thing
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Hello !!! :) The Nazis is an abbreviation for National Socialists. Maybe they were left-wing ???

In some aspects they were left-wing, and in some aspects right-wing (for example their racism was rather right-wing).
 
I don't really think the Nazis considered Jews superior in any way, save for some fringe subcultures associated with the Strasserites and the Sturmabteilung. The fact that the Jews were perceived as dominant was largely blamed on the structure of German society itself, which was one of the the reasons the Nazis wanted to build to a totalitarian system.
 
I don't really think the Nazis considered Jews superior in any way
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I think they did because theories of global Jewish conspiracy were very popular among them.

The Nazis believed that Jews already "took over" power in Russia and almost did so in Poland, they also considered Germany to be their next planned target.

I've watched one of lectures of Jan Tomasz Gross, and he admitted that anti-Jewish sentiment was somehow similar to anti-Nobility sentiment.

The main difference probably was, that nobility was at least considered as "bad ones, but still ours", while Jews were also considered as "aliens / them".

Not that I am a fun of Jan T. Gross as a historian, but here I can agree with him. And he is a sociologist by education, so probably he is right here.

the fact that the Jews were perceived as dominant was largely blamed on the structure of German society itself,
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Every Christian society in Europe had more or less such a structure, to be honest. And that perception was to be blamed on that structure indeed.

Most of Christians in Europe until the 19th century were peasants or workers. Most of Jews in Europe had "white-collar jobs" since Medieval times.
 
Domen said:
Hello !!! :) The Nazis is an abbreviation for National Socialists. Maybe they were left-wing ???
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Left-wingers are defined by a stated desire (not necessarily a correct one) of building a more equal society. Right-wingers are contradistinguished from Left-wing. Since the Nazis believed that the Jews used left-wing ideologies to overcome their necessary "inferiority", that makes them clearly right-wing.
 
The Nazis indeed desired to build a better society - but a society membership in which was to be limited only to the Master Race.

So it was supposed to be a more equal society, but more equal only for members of the Master Race and within this group.

Jews were considered as one of obstacles for such "equality", because they were allegedly "preventing many Germans from getting rich".

Since the Nazis believed that the Jews used left-wing ideologies to overcome their necessary "inferiority",
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But in reality those Jews who used left-wing ideologies, used them to overcome the anti-Jewish sentiment among poor peasants and poor workers.

And I am really not convinced that the Nazis sincerely believed in Jewish "inferiority" - apart from already mentioned moral aspect.

Of course Nazi propaganda depicted Jews as such, but nobody sincerely believes their own propaganda.

The purpose of propaganda is to lie to others and to fool others. In this case the German society, and later also population of occupied states.

For example Nazi Germany's propaganda posters depicting Jews as rats or worms were very widespread in occupied Poland.

===================================

As for left-wing / right-wing Nazis dispute:

IMO the Nazis incorporated right-wing elements (such as racism) into left-wing ideology, or inversely - depending which elements were dominant.

But IMHO they were not "pure left-wingers" or "pure right-wingers" - it was a strange mix of bad things from Right and bad things from Left.

And actually some of apparently more purely right-wing ideologies were not based around anti-Semitism - for example Italian Fascism.
 
Domen said:
I don't accept it in relation to modern times. Now things are different (but now number of German Jews is also much smaller than back then). In the 1930s, it was the case. Every Jew in Nazi Germany was easily distinguishable from [other] Germans because they had to wear Stars of David on their clothes.
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State-enforced dress codes, and entirely novel ones like that, are absolutely no indicator of subjective identity, no indicator that Jews saw any inherent exclusion between "German" and "Jewish" identities. It only tells us that the Nazis saw such an exclusion. By accepting that uncritically, you are telling us that the Nazis knew the Jews better than the Jews knew themselves.

Which, you're free to argue. But I think we have to be clear as to what it is you are actually arguing.

No more depressing than any other nation who wants to be distinguished from other nations.
...
The same is the case with Jews, who want to be seen as Jews. Especially those who moved to Israel.
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What reason do we have to believe that most Jews in early 20th century German wished to be seen as resident foreigners, rather than as Germans?

Domen said:
As for left-wing / right-wing Nazis dispute:

IMO the Nazis incorporated right-wing elements (such as racism) into left-wing ideology, or inversely - depending which elements were dominant.

But IMHO they were not "pure left-wingers" or "pure right-wingers" - it was a strange mix of bad things from Right and bad things from Left.

And actually some of apparently more purely right-wing ideologies were not based around anti-Semitism - for example Italian Fascism.
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Italian fascism had its origins in national syndicalism, a movement generally regarded as left-wing until the First World War.

Nazism had its origins in late-19th century German militarism, pan-Germanism and in Völkisch nationalism, movements universally regarded as right-wing. (The latter two had left-wing associations in the early 19th century, but by 1920 this was an archaeological detail.)

How you came to the conclusion that the former is purely and unambiguously right-wing, but the latter is a hybrid of left and right, is not clear to me.
 
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