Money. Doing it Right this Time.

It didn't "become permanent". We still have a depressed economy so we'll continue to react accordingly.

Well, over a year has passed since this comment.

And the Fed is indeed winding down QE to zero this fall. (Tapered again today)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101770036

Unemployment rate passed 6.5% on the way down 2 months ago.


So I just wanted to say you were right and I was wrong.

QE doesn't appear to be permanent after all like I thought it would be.
 
remember, zero purchases does not mean nothing of QE remains in the system. It's only over once the balance sheet is returned to regular proportions.

USA is still very far from normal monetary conditions.

It wasn't so long ago that planned, periodic injections were completely unheard of. Before any regular monthly purchases started, QE was already well underway.
 
I should have responded to you before this. Because you put some thought and effort into what you said. But all I can say is that the last couple weeks, I've been starting a new job, and it's been helluva busy.



Krugman reviews Geitner's book?
How can I not comment on that!? :hammer:


I can't help but notice the word Fraud was used 0 times in this article.

As in very large housing loans being given to people with no job/no income and then selling the loan to Fanny/Freddie/MBS Investors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Income_No_Asset


I agree. Fraud was a very important part of what happened. And any analysis leading up to the cause of the Financial Crisis should spend a lot of time on that. My only thought on the why of which Geithner and Krugman aren't talking about it in this case is that they are talking about the immediate aftermath, not the run up to. :dunno:



Now, onto the Krugman article.


Is this some kind of freaking joke? :mad:
The only reason the crisis "ended" is because the FASB was bullied into relaxing accounting rules.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=awSxPMGzDW38&refer=home
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=agfrKseJ94jc

So one month later as the freefall stops because accounting fraud got legalized, along comes the stress test results.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/business/08stress.html?_r=0

And what a miracle!
A high school-esque report card saves the economy cheaply. :cool::goodjob:


This is a difficult question. And I think it's one that you need someone on the finance end, rather than basic monetary theory end, to make a proper explanation of.

(There's an old thread here, that you might be interested in looking at about the causes of the crisis). I was looking at that old thread because I know Whomp once gave an explanation of the purposes of mark to market accounting. I was looking for that, and couldn't find it. And he might be able to do a good job of answering your questions on that regard. I don't know that I could give you an acceptable answer.



A total mystery.


Finally, we get to the heart of the real issue!
Yes, private debt is too high.
That bolded sentence makes little sense.
Creditors tell people to reduce their debt load? Since when???


Creditors tell debtors to reduce their debt load when they think that the debtors are going to default and get bankruptcy protection.


People can't keep increasing their debt if their income remains stagnant.
Not even with 0% interest rates.
Because unlike governments, people have to pay the original loan amount back before they die!
We entered a balance sheet recession because people can't take on more debt. That's why the demand for new loans isn't there anymore.


I think you're on the right track here. Keep in mind that a lot of the reasoning behind the loosening of credit rules was because of stagnant incomes. Government wanted to make homes more affordable. But, like with student loans, the possibility of lowering costs or increasing incomes to make these things more affordable was just well outside of the acceptable politics of the times. So making credit easier to get was what the political establishment defaulted to instead.



Ease bankruptcy laws, not strengthen them.
Student loans not being able to ever be wiped away by bankruptcy is criminal.

Send people more stimulus checks in the mail. (Tho it hurts my black heart to advocate such a thing)


I agree with you here. Bankruptcy has been getting harder in recent years. And that's never a good thing for the economy as a whole.


Don't have the government spend $2 trillion dollars on stupid stimulus projects.


This I don't agree with. There are easily more than $2trillion in public investment that would be in the best interest of the nation in the long run.


I wish Krugman had led with this sentence. He seems so close to having the right idea on things.


Geithner, like most people who write a memoir after being a public person, has an overwhelming urge to cover his own ass, and make himself look as good as possible. A political memoir where the writer (on those rare occasions where they actually write their own books, rather than hire a ghost writer to make them look good) which makes the author/subject look like the jackass he really is, those are rare. And all the more believable because of that. David Stockman's The Triumph of Politics stands out in that regard.
 
I wanted to ask something… in cases of runaway inflation, how has the printing of alrger-denomination bills affected the inflation rate historically?
 
Really runaway inflation is more of a policy than an accident. The printing of ever larger denomination bills is just a cost saving measure.
 
I should have responded to you before this. Because you put some thought and effort into what you said. But all I can say is that the last couple weeks, I've been starting a new job, and it's been helluva busy...

Good luck with the new job! :D


And thanks for the Whomp link. I'll give it some reading.
 
Creditors tell debtors to reduce their debt load when they think that the debtors are going to default and get bankruptcy protection.

Since you said this so bluntly, I have to agree with this statement.

This I don't agree with. There are easily more than $2trillion in public investment that would be in the best interest of the nation in the long run.

Accepting the $2 Trillion figure at face value, I can understand that the govenment, in charge of its own currency, has a very high capacity for risk and a very low cost of capital. So they can afford take a very long term view and invest in some projects "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" that private individuals and certainly corporations would shy away from.

Would you agree that some public investment is "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" and some public invesment is simply wasteful? (Some words go beyond "wasteful," but I will stick with it.
 
Accepting the $2 Trillion figure at face value, I can understand that the govenment, in charge of its own currency, has a very high capacity for risk and a very low cost of capital. So they can afford take a very long term view and invest in some projects "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" that private individuals and certainly corporations would shy away from.

It's not just risk and cost of capital, it's the ability to capture profits in ways that a corporation cannot.
When the American gov't funded the creation of the internet, they didn't care if Yahoo or Google became the dominant player. On this front, it's just really beneficial if it's an American company.

As well, there can be benefits to the taxpayer that they cannot really put into a pricetag. Central Park is a good example. The value of Central Park being maintained is pretty high, especially to local residents. The net dollar profit from this maintenance might not be wildly impressive, and it would be hella hard to calculate, but that's a separate question.

Would you agree that some public investment is "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" and some public invesment is simply wasteful? (Some words go beyond "wasteful," but I will stick with it.

Yes. Some projects are only as good as the workfare (morale benefit, lines on a resume) they provide. Now, through the multiplier effect, the cost of those projects can be a lot less than it looks on the face of it, so the net benefit to citizens in the short-run can be pretty high (per dollar).

But, outside of straight-out workfare (which, as I've mentioned is vastly less costly than people realize), any project doesn't need to generate as high returns as you'd first suspect, because the ability to recoup revenue from the effort is a lot higher too (mainly because all downstream beneficiaries of the local jobs can be subjected to taxes as well).
 
Since you said this so bluntly, I have to agree with this statement.



Accepting the $2 Trillion figure at face value, I can understand that the govenment, in charge of its own currency, has a very high capacity for risk and a very low cost of capital. So they can afford take a very long term view and invest in some projects "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" that private individuals and certainly corporations would shy away from.



Consider all of the things the government has invested in over the years. The Erie Canal was one of the most wildly successful public investments ever. El Mac mentioned the internet. There's all the spinoffs from aerospace and the space program. There are roads. The Interstate system was all government funded. There's rural electrification and the Tennessee Valley Authority. There's many educational institutions. You should get the picture. Public investment has done vast amounts to make this country what it is today.

What about spending another $2trillion over the coming decade or so? There's the Smart Grid. There's many billions needed in just upgrades and repairs to current roads. There's expansion of public transit, and high speed rail. There are upgrades needed to airports. There are many investments in health and science that are going begging. $2trillion doesn't seem like an outrageous sum to me.



Would you agree that some public investment is "in the best interest of the nation in the long run" and some public invesment is simply wasteful? (Some words go beyond "wasteful," but I will stick with it.


Sure. The 2 things which happen here are that sometimes people, with the best of intentions, just get a program wrong. Or sometimes unforeseen events come along and make something obsolete while it's still being built. And then there's politics. I assume you've heard of earmarks and pork barrel spending. What you need to know about those is that not all of those projects are worthless. Many are in fact very valuable. But many are also only about pandering to local voters. And it's not uncommon for many of those projects being 'bridges to nowhere'.
 
This is a difficult question. And I think it's one that you need someone on the finance end, rather than basic monetary theory end, to make a proper explanation of.
(There's an old thread here, that you might be interested in looking at about the causes of the crisis). I was looking at that old thread because I know Whomp once gave an explanation of the purposes of mark to market accounting. I was looking for that, and couldn't find it. And he might be able to do a good job of answering your questions on that regard. I don't know that I could give you answer.

The purpose of mark to market accounting (FASB 157 in this case aka Enron rule) was to value assets at their current value. The problem with this type of accounting, as it was in the 30's, is it is pro cyclical. It doesn't allow for markets to understand cash flow. If a loan is paying it should have value. However, a bad loan is a bad loan and should be written off. That was not the case for the majority of loans banks held. Trading portfolio? Mark to market. Other assets that are held to maturity? They should have cash flow (DDM) accounting instead. Hygro and I had a phone conversation on this topic less than a month ago.



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Really runaway inflation is more of a policy than an accident.
It being a result of policy is something I can understand, but runaway inflation as a policy itself?
Cutlass said:
The printing of ever larger denomination bills is just a cost saving measure.
Hmmmm. Probably, as I don't think anything can stop this now except for a total collapse or getting someone competent in charge.
 
It being a result of policy is something I can understand, but runaway inflation as a policy itself?


Well, the most extreme inflation, hyperinflation, really can't happen except as policy. It's an oddity of the subject that relatively low and short term inflation events can and often are accidental. That is, above the 2% most central banks target. But really persistent inflation above that, well part of it is momentum. That is, if the public continuously expects inflation, and doesn't trust the government to stop it, then even if the government really wants to stop it, it may have an extremely difficult time doing so. Brazil had a long experience with that.

But outside of that, it really is a policy. The government is spending more than it is taxing, and the economy is trying to buy more than it is able to sell, and the money is expanded to cover the nominal shortfall, and so prices rise.


Hmmmm. Probably, as I don't think anything can stop this now except for a total collapse or getting someone competent in charge.


Incompetence and inflation go hand in hand. Without competence, getting inflation under control is next to impossible. In part because no one trusts you will, and so no one acts as if you will.
 
Well, the most extreme inflation, hyperinflation, really can't happen except as policy. It's an oddity of the subject that relatively low and short term inflation events can and often are accidental. That is, above the 2% most central banks target. But really persistent inflation above that, well part of it is momentum. That is, if the public continuously expects inflation, and doesn't trust the government to stop it, then even if the government really wants to stop it, it may have an extremely difficult time doing so. Brazil had a long experience with that.
But outside of that, it really is a policy. The government is spending more than it is taxing, and the economy is trying to buy more than it is able to sell, and the money is expanded to cover the nominal shortfall, and so prices rise.
I see your point now. Yes, Argentina's Peronists have used a lot of fancy names to disguise what was basically a consumption-driven economy, with no large-scale production. For example, Argentina sells oil and buys refined hydrobcarbons -including fuel!, instead of refining its own oil and selling the remainders.
Cutlass said:
Incompetence and inflation go hand in hand. Without competence, getting inflation under control is next to impossible. In part because no one trusts you will, and so no one acts as if you will.
A part of the problem is that the government forged the statistics not to keep the trust of the general public as was originaly thought, but instead because that would mean some GNP statistics could be kept up and they could keep saying that Argentina had had net growth at the end of each year. They sold it to their own supporters as part of a necessary lie to avoid general panic…
But then this year it surfaced that Argentina had paid about U$S 4,000,000,000 more than it should have to its creditors. And lo and behold! many of those creditors were actually government officials who had bought up Argentine sovereign debt bonds on the quiet.

That was the last straw, and everyone is just praying for things to stop deteriorating, and that at least a few of these people go to jail (the VP is likely to, and might not end his appointed term in office).
 
I've come across a lot of arguments for why trying to cut the amount of borrowing being done by the government is a bad idea, though it seems to be the policy of both of the main parties in this country. So what are the advantages of it? What are they thinking when they advance it as a plan of action? And is it demonstrably 'wrong' to think as they do?
 
I've come across a lot of arguments for why trying to cut the amount of borrowing being done by the government is a bad idea, though it seems to be the policy of both of the main parties in this country. So what are the advantages of it? What are they thinking when they advance it as a plan of action? And is it demonstrably 'wrong' to think as they do?

It's politically easy to call for balanced budgets because of why a household would want to. Since balanced budgets are very hard to achieve, each side out of power can always score votes from the misinformed "pragmatists" of the middle by attacking the party in power for fiscal irresponsibility.

Some good reasons to balance a budget would be to redistribute wealth, depending on on whose back the budget is being balanced. Another would be if demand-side inflation was causing problems.

There's a lot of cause-effect misunderstandings too: the American economy always looks great when there's a balanced budget and terrible when there's a big deficit. But large deficits are the counteracting effects of a bad economy, and balanced budgets are the counteracting effects of a strong one.

They are largely wrong to be concerned with the size of the budget gap in of itself.
 
Demand-side inflation being where there are too many people wanting goods, so companies charge more for them, right? So what you're saying is that it's not really a matter of opinion - it's quantifiably the wrong thing to do?
 
Demand-side inflation being where there are too many people wanting goods, so companies charge more for them, right? So what you're saying is that it's not really a matter of opinion - it's quantifiably the wrong thing to do?

Yes that's demand side inflation, when there's no more room to invest in unemployed resources so that mo money is mo problems higher prices. It's not even intrinsically a problem but at the dead least people find it annoying and unsettling.

Quantifiably the size of the deficit should be whatever gets us to full employment (i.e. maximum investment), ideally in the most efficient way. In general that means, yes, balancing budgests for the sake of it is "quantifiably the wrong thing to do."
 
I've come across a lot of arguments for why trying to cut the amount of borrowing being done by the government is a bad idea, though it seems to be the policy of both of the main parties in this country. So what are the advantages of it? What are they thinking when they advance it as a plan of action? And is it demonstrably 'wrong' to think as they do?


Professional economists are broadly in agreement in very large areas of policy ideas. But politicians of all stripes can still find tame economists who'll shill for whatever hairbrained scheme they'd like to push. As Hygro was saying, it's easy for politicians to demagogue for balanced budgets. And they can usually find some whore of an economist to back them. There are a number of thinktanks who will rent out people to find a convincing reason where whatever nonsense you just brainfarted on a political speech really is the 'truth of economics'.

But 'balanced budgets' really does have more of a pedigree than the usual political idiocy. Not that it's any less idiotic, but rather that its been around a very long time. And it really appeals to the ignorant. So it's not just bad economics, it's demagoguery of the basest sort.

Now what does the economics say? Like Hygro was saying, full employment is the relevant goal. Whatever deficit it takes to be at full employment, run that deficit. Why? Let's say a nation has a population of 100 million people. Being an average country, at average times maybe half those people have jobs. Why only half? Because that 100m includes children. It includes retired elderly, stay at home parents, adult full time students, people who are unable to work because of disability, because they are institutionalized in hospitals or prisons. And it includes people who have dropped out of the labor force because they couldn't find work, and they are on welfare or are homeless.

Now here's the key part: Whether 50m of those people are working, or 52m, or 48m, the nation is still paying to feed, clothe, house, and provide some medical care and other services to the whole 100m of them. So, what should be obvious to everyone, if 48m are working to feed ect 100m the burden of doing so is heavier on each of them than if 52m are working to feed ect 100m of them.

What that should tell you is that the cost to the country of keeping unemployment higher is, well, high. Actually a great deal higher, in the long run, then just borrowing and spending enough money now to bring the unemployment down to normal. Because what is true is that as the unemployment rate rises, the revenue that the government receives from taxes declines at the same time that the spending of the government is driven up because more people qualify for the social spending. But as the unemployment rate drops, tax receipts go up, and fewer people apply for government assistance. So if you borrow to put people to work, the deficits solve themselves. But if you try to balance the budgets, then you are acting in a way that makes the situation worse.

Maybe this is counter-intuitive, but for a real fiscal conservative, the the enemy is not borrowing, the enemy is unemployment. This is why Japan's government debt is so high now. They were never willing to do what it took to resolve the economic problems, and so the budget problems just dragged on year after year after year. And the accumulated debt of decades of a weak economy end up being far higher than the short term debt of fixing the economy would be.

The roof on your house starts to leak. You can borrow the money to have the roof replaced, and you won't have to do it again for a very long time. Or you can continually repair the damage to the inside of your house that the leak is causing. Which makes more sense?
 
That was a really tight explanation.
 
To complicate it slightly, I just read this line (pdf on Hyman Minsky):

government deficits financed by borrowing from banks result in an increase in the money supply without any corresponding increase in business debt … This is more conducive to steady growth …. Therefore government deficit financing, even during a period of sustained growth and secularly rising prices, may be desirable in order to maintain the conditions for further growth.​

Minsky was one of the best products of both Harvard and Chicago. It's more nuanced than that but that quote stood out.
 
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