What gives better science, order or freedom

just a question, is the game speed standard for the discussion? I'm seeing people hit T150 ideologies and I can never do that even with science powered civs...

Yes standard speed.

I don't know about better science, but Order gives easier SV than freedom. The reasoning: freedom has Covert Action and Treaty organization. Those will win you a diplomatic victory real quick. Freedom lovers will be DVing before they ever get a part out.

That could be applied to Order as well, DV is in general faster than SV if done right. But that is not the question really.

Order doesn't really get the DV bonuses Freedom does--they're about happiness and production. Order's spies are about preserving a science lead; freedom's are about allying city states. You're more likely to win DV by accident as freedom.

You miss the point. Order DV is still faster than Order SV which makes your point 2 posts above an argument applicable to both ideologies and does not answer the topic question. Saying that Freedom is better at DV than Order does not imply that Order is better at SV there is no logical implication here.

Also I find the claim that freedom is better at DV debatable, Freedom bonuses not being mandatory to reach the necessary amount of votes. Sub 200 DV might not even reach Tier 3 tenants.

Edit: I'm not saying Freedom is bad for DV, I used it in TSG91. But I do not understand the implication between DV and SV that you're trying to make.

How is freedom being better at DV debatable? Freedom has tier1 and tier3 tenets that coddle allies. Order has none. The only way is if you somehow argue that Order gives a smashingly earlier Info age without sacrificing on influence.

I'm going to argue exactly that (well not the smashingly part). Order saves gold through skyscrapers (Tier1) which is pretty good if you need to rush buy labs or schools and may have a faster science the shorter your game is (which is the case for DV compared to SV) especially if you reach tier 3.

Freedom has faster election rigging yes. But at the cost of either the specialist food or more GPP (until you take a 3rd T1 tenet that is). Also I doubt double rigging will suddenly give you tons of CS in the small 40ish turns before the vote. Yes it's a DV benefit no questions asked, is it really a big advantage ? Doubt it (if it was double chance of coup we'd be talking). Tier 3 options sometimes don't even enter the equation since with having to finish Rationalism you may not have time for the tier 3 tenet before the first vote.

To me there's no clear winner here for fast DV. But I'll give you something, if the game is slow and tier 3 tenet kicks in and allying CS is difficult, then yes Freedom will help the player more in that case due to the tenet that work on a long period of time that you mentioned. But in my late experience, science is a bigger problem than CS alliances if you're looking for very good finish times.

: Freedom ain't bad!
: You must be joking, Order is exactly 2.34634% faster than Freedom.
: That's debatable!
: Son, it's been tried to death too many times to even bother explaining it once more.
: But i've been doing some thinking and ..
: Son, there are two types of people in this world: those, who understand communism, and those that don't.

If you're rush-buying skyscrapers, then you're sacrificing influence. DV is not a gimme just because you reached info age. You can actually make it worse, because the frontrunner gets 2 extra votes. And if that is not you....

Acken said:

But in my late experience, science is a bigger problem than CS alliances if you're looking for very good finish times.

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True. I never had diplo game when lack of CS alliances delay my victory, it was always lack of science.

it really depends whether you have lots of money or lots of production money? go freedom production? go order

Moriarte said:

: Freedom ain't bad!
: You must be joking, Order is exactly 2.34634% faster than Freedom.
: That's debatable!
: Son, it's been tried to death too many times to even bother explaining it once more.
: But i've been doing some thinking and ..
: Son, there are two types of people in this world: those, who understand communism, and those that don't.

Click to expand...

Hahaha, I love this. Emoji for the win, Moriarte.

For the people who thinks that order is superior to freedom, what would you change to make them comparable? Remove the scientist at spaceflight pioneers? Move scyscrapers to freedom?

Superior... or superior at science? Order's got the edge at buildings and happiness, but freedom has the pull with city-states and great people. And freedom's clearly the right choice for Sweden and Korea. They're just better at different things, and that's how it should be.

chumchu said:

For the people who thinks that order is superior to freedom, what would you change to make them comparable? Remove the scientist at spaceflight pioneers? Move scyscrapers to freedom?

Click to expand...

Order/Freedom/Autocracy are all better at different things. It turns out that Order's particular advantages make it a little bit faster at DiV and SV under typical circumstances. It's not like Freedom is an non-viable choice, but if you really wanted to iron out the win-turn difference, just scale back the %-beakers from Worker's Faculties. A little.

What is typical? Low CS count? I think Order's better even at domination on Immortal, but on Deity it has to be Autocracy. Same principle: on Immortal, actually conquering the cities is easy. It's developing them and recouping happiness that's hard. On deity, taking down all the units with few units of your own is hard.

On lower difficulty (or if there are just not that many CS), allying all the CS is easy. But if you're on Deity with 25 CS and you're not regularly losing CS quests for culture, faith, and science--let alone the build-a-wonder quests--you need to write a War Academy article, because when I play they sure aren't just allying themselves.

I'd say freedom for a purely peaceful, tall science victory. Get as many Great Scientists and Great Artists as possible that way and generally just sacrifice them in the name of tech pursuit. That is especially true with irrigated grasslands around.

If you were to go wide, then Order would help you war with the neighbors while teching.

I think the real question is what is a faster tech win---wide with maximum science buildings, or tall and maximum great people?

Uzael36 said:

I thought the question was what was best for SV.

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It depends which civilization you'll play and on which difficulty level.

Settler and chieftain : Order
For any civ, because you have such bonus, actually, you will not have the time to earn at least 9 000 gold to buy 5 spaceships (assume you'll build on in capital and have mercantilism + big ben).
So with order you can go around T170 on settles and T190 on chieftain.

Prince to Immortal : Order or Liberty
There's no really gap between them. Except for some civs (Spain, Poland) where order is clearly better. The choice is more about coal or no coal, alu or no alu. Due to happiness limit, you'll have your empire at its max happiness possibilities when ideologies come. So no strategics Liberty, strategics : Order.
IMHO Liberty tenets 2 are pretty poor against order tenets 2.

Deity : Order.
Because ideologies pressure, you'll have better chance with order. Even if the world choose other ideologies, order have quite enough happiness to sustain pressure. Even if you're not easy with culture on Deity. And more than Liberty or Order an ideologies swap will slow down a lot, specially if it's for Autocracy.

Exception is OCC : Tommy said it, Liberty is better in long time after ideologies. And in an OCC you'll have around 100turns after ideologies. So Liberty is a no-brainer in OCC. I don't remember what I chose on Deity OCC, so I can speak if you can resist against ideologies pressure with Liberty.

I don't see how Spain is clearly an order civ. You could get Uluru and have a faith game. That's Freedom (or autocracy, but that's not an SV).

There are Freedom civs, too. Korea is pretty obvious. And Sweden.

Not sure how Freedom tier 2 tenets are less, either. Universal suffrage is tier 2.