Top Ten Medieval Battles

How were Legnica or the battle on the Ice anything like "most important"?

If anything the battle of Mohi was much more important than Legnica.

Can you please explain why? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here besides just throwing names out (Admittedly all of us are). I'd love to hear why Mohi was more important, not necessarily disagreeing but would like to know why.
 
Read the wiki article, it goes into a good enough depth on how and why it was a major battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi


Battle of Legnica was completely meaningless, the whole campaign's purpose was just to be a time waster so the Poles, Bohemians and Silesians were preoccupied and couldn't send reinforcements to the Hungarians who were the main target and front. The Battle of Legnica was more or less the conclusion of the side-campaign and it's entire relevance to history is down to the fact the King of Poland died and with him, a fantastic claim to Silesia. (Which while IMO is pretty darn relevant as I argued last page, is overall not all that important, this compared to the Battle of Mohi, which completely changed a nation.)
 
You realize that history professors, especially if they're quite old, can say lots of awfully inaccurate things. My history professor from my last semester in school taught that the Daily Telegraph Affair was the primary impetus for the First World War, and also that there was the Schlieffen Plan.

Am I going to trust the professor or the student?
Uhmm, you doubt the existence of the Schlieffen plan? It exists alright.
 
Am I going to trust the professor or the student?
Uhmm, you doubt the existence of the Schlieffen plan? It exists alright.
There's a link in my sig you should probably click and read.
 
There's a link in my sig you should probably click and read.

Well I read bits and pieces but I didn't really reach a solid conclusion. There wasn't even a summary! There seemed to exist some sort of Schlieffen plan, with differentials such as advancing through so called neutral countries to avoid the franco fortressions and defeating France before the Russians could completely mobilise their army which marks it out from other military plans. So? Doesn't prove that the plan did not exist - even if it wasn't implemented!

Unless I've missed something...
 
Well I read bits and pieces but I didn't really reach a solid conclusion. There wasn't even a summary! There seemed to exist some sort of Schlieffen plan, with differentials such as advancing through so called neutral countries to avoid the franco fortressions and defeating France before the Russians could completely mobilise their army which marks it out from other military plans. So? Doesn't prove that the plan did not exist - even if it wasn't implemented!

Unless I've missed something...
Of course there wasn't a summary. It's a short article. It is a summary.

But if you want the tl;dr version, there was no "Schlieffen plan". The whole thing is based on a position paper from 1905 that did not depict an actual war situation, and was not a war plan. Germany did not even make war plans after the typical understanding of the Schlieffen plan, but mobilization and deployment orders with only vague sketches of an idea about the conduct of the following campaign.
 
I don't think you even refuted that a "schlieffen plan" actually existed in that specific article, brah.
Anyway, i'm still going to refer to a schlieffen plan as something that existed. Nothing i've read or said to this point has compelled me to think otherwise.
 
So when was it decided who was going where for the campaign, and do we have a record of that decision? I mean, during the Cold War we always had a reasonably detailed plan for what would happen: a wall of men moves West from the big country over there, and if it goes our way 1 Corps pitches in to hold the line on the North German Plain while we get all excited, pretend it's 1944 again and get ready to sew some battle honours onto our colours. It would have been a pretty big risk to have left all that planning until the point at which we realised that the Russians were coming our way.

I don't think you even refuted that a "schlieffen plan" actually existed in that specific article, brah.
Anyway, i'm still going to refer to a schlieffen plan as something that existed. Nothing i've read or said to this point has compelled me to think otherwise.

This is the second time in as many days that I've learnt that my understanding a major historical concept needed to be totally re-written; it's a very dangerous thing to try to totally disregard Dachs' history. I think the basic point was that our idea of the German High Command having a folder marked 'where to go in the event of war', which was up-to-date for 1914, is a myth: the plan as we know it was designed for a totally different war, and wasn't a perscriptive (spelling?) day-to-day set of campaign orders anyway.
 
I don't think you even refuted that a "schlieffen plan" actually existed in that specific article, brah.
Anyway, i'm still going to refer to a schlieffen plan as something that existed. Nothing i've read or said to this point has compelled me to think otherwise.
Possibly because you didn't read the article and the subsequent discussion in that thread. Skimming doesn't really qualify.
So when was it decided who was going where for the campaign, and do we have a record of that decision? I mean, during the Cold War we always had a reasonably detailed plan for what would happen: a wall of men moves West from the big country over there, and if it goes our way 1 Corps pitches in to hold the line on the North German Plain while we get all excited, pretend it's 1944 again and get ready to sew some battle honours onto our colours. It would have been a pretty big risk to have left all that planning until the point at which we realised that the Russians were coming our way.
If there had been no idea whatsoever about anything that would've happened during the campaign, they could never have deployed their troops. Insofar as the General Staff made "war plans" they were focused overwhelmingly on the process of mobilization and deployment. And in order to do that, there was a vague outline of how operations would proceed. We don't know what this outline was, because the Aufmarsch for 1914 was destroyed by British bombing during the Second World War. All we have is prior years' war plans, and the post facto arguments of various participant officers, and the course of events during the campaign itself.

Going by the numbers of deployed forces in various locations and the equipment available to same, it seems clear that the main effort was to be directed in the center and/or the right, with the center notably containing more troops than the right wing. The center clearly was designed to mass east of Metz-Diedenhofen and fight a defensive-offensive battle against the French main effort. The right was clearly intended to go on the offensive in Belgium. The purpose of that right wing attack remains unclear - was it the main effort, designed to operationally outflank the French armies; was it the main effort, but directed against Paris instead for political reasons; or was it a secondary effort, designed to counter the Anglo-French left and fix forces that otherwise could have harmed the center?

Some of this stuff would have been sketched out beforehand, obviously, because the Germans would have to have some idea of what to deploy where. But a clockwork, hour-by-hour plan as famously argued in the works of the midcentury authors would have been idiotic and counter to the whole nature of the war as the German military understood it, a war that would be fought in fog and friction. Anything more than vagueries past a certain point would have to be shelved anyway. It's not really that comparable to NATO's planned defense of Germany, because it's much more possible to plan a defensive campaign ahead of time than an offensive one - prepared defenses, phase lines for withdrawal, and you already have the avenues of enemy attacks mapped out beforehand anyway. Fundamentally, the Germans would have to send their armies to various places based on where the French and British ended up putting their armies, and it's very hard to figure that out before the campaign actually starts.

Schlieffen's whole idea of "the modern Alexander" was, after all, not somebody who just set his armies in motion and let the plan take care of the rest. His supreme commander was a man armed with a staff, innumerable telephones and wireless machines, capable of keeping contact with his armies and directing them from a vast electronic nexus behind the lines. Schlieffen's war would have been one where the Chief of the General Staff's headquarters would make the decisions based on the way the campaign was going, not how the General Staff had thought the war would go a few years ago.

Or, basically, what you said in the second half of your post.
 
Dachs said:
Some of this stuff would have been sketched out beforehand, obviously, because the Germans would have to have some idea of what to deploy where. But a clockwork, hour-by-hour plan as famously argued in the works of the midcentury authors would have been idiotic and counter to the whole nature of the war as the German military understood it, a war that would be fought in fog and friction. Anything more than vagueries past a certain point would have to be shelved anyway

Now that is a very good point: hadn't connected it in my own mind but of course it makes perfect sense. It would have been strange for German doctrine to have totally disregarded its greatest military thinker.
 
You in return felt it was necessary to engage in all kinds of fallacies and speculations about either my knowledge or my character.

What?! :lol:

When writing "you" I was referring to "Germans" rather than to one person.

You (now I am referring to you as a person) wrote things like "We like secularism in Germany" in your post - and I was referring to that. So how could you think that I am referring to just you as a person, while responding to that? :lol:
 
Can you please explain why? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here besides just throwing names out (Admittedly all of us are). I'd love to hear why Mohi was more important, not necessarily disagreeing but would like to know why.

Mohi was more important because the Mongol invasion had a much more significant impact on Hungary than it had on Poland - Hungary was the main target of the Mongols, while Poland was only a secondary target - Mongols invaded Poland in order to prevent Polish forces from helping their Hungarian allies.

That's why.

And also because shortly after the battle of Legnica, Mongol forces which fought at Legnica, marched away to Hungary ("mission accomplished, potential reinforcements for Hungary defeated, we now march to get our main target"), while after the battle of Mohi (April 1241), the Mongols continued to depopulate and devastate Hungary for many months, until 1242, when they were informed about the death of Ogadai (he died in December 1241).

Also the battle of Mohi was larger than the battle of Legnica.
 
But if you want the tl;dr version,there was no "Schlieffen plan". The whole thing is based on a position paper from 1905 that did not depict an actual war situation, and was not a war plan. Germany did not even make war plans after the typical understanding of the Schlieffen plan, but mobilization and deployment orders with only vague sketches of an idea about the conduct of the following campaign.

This is not universally agreed upon.

...11. Honorable Mention - Sekigahara - Toshiro Mufuni becomes Shogun.
 
This is not universally agreed upon.

...11. Honorable Mention - Sekigahara - Toshiro Mufuni becomes Shogun.
Neither is the Holocaust.

What is universally agreed upon is that 1600 is not "medieval".
 
What is universally agreed upon is that 1600 is not "medieval".
I've heard people claim that the Middle Ages ended with the Thirty Years War :mischief:
 
I've heard people claim that the Middle Ages ended with the Thirty Years War :mischief:

Yeah, and I've heard that David is the biblical equivalent of the Godfather. Doesn't make it necessarily valid or relevant though.
 
Could be in Japan. Dynastic periodisation and all that.

The term is only really used in European history (or only ought to be, anyway), and normally encompasses the time from AD 476 (when the last Western Emperor was deposed), traditionally until 1453 (the fall of Constantinople) although this seems a bit arbitrary - better candidates are either 1492 (Columbus' discovery of America and the Spanish conquest of Grenada), or 1485 (the Battle of Bosworth Field), if you're English.
 
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