Immortal - Opening honor - questions

Gustavus Rex

Prince
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Oct 21, 2013
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Honor is bad - it is known. Still, I like to roleplay sometimes and think of myself as the evil villain civ. I fill honor first, kill everything till DoV or SV if war becomes boring or hard.

This was emperor and now i'm at immortal. It's trickier so before I start next try i have some questions.

1.) How many own cities? I use to make 4-6 to claim lux and strategic spots and later to pump out armies. Also to make neighbours DoW and backstab me. On immortal this easily results in losing a city or two with makes me pissed. But maybe It's not so bad? What do you think?

2.) What SP after honor? For me this has been situational. Often i take some trad or liberty before rationalism but im very lost about it. Commerse is good to.

Ideas?

3.) religion. Should I get one? I like, if possible, getting a culture pantheon for faster early sp but I never really go for religion. I try to conquer the best one and give it to myself if the civ having it is close enough.

At last. What do you Immortal and deity players do when/if opening full honor?


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You will want a pantheon for sure.
Always.

Whether or not you get a full blown religion.... you must decide how hard to try. Honor lacks growth, Happiness and border expansion. Religion can help.

as for opening Honor on Immortal... I would do it as Poland, because I could get full Lib or tradition as well without sacrificing Rationalism. Some other culture heavy Civ (aztecs? France?) might also work.

Turn on Raging Barbs, that might help the initial culture needs and get you through Honor fast.

Honor has one of the best closers in the game. The lack of happiness and food and border expansion is what makes it so damn tough.
 
1) Usually one per unique luxury for me. Tends to be 3-6 depending on the map. Generally if there's a unique lux a new city isn't "stealing" happiness from your other ones.

2) Going back to liberty could be good, fast workers, production and representation are all good for warmongering. Only problem is, if honor and liberty are all you finish, the only GP you can faith buy are generals. Also the free settler and worker are pretty underwhelming by the time you'd get them not to mention the settler :c5production: bonus would be pointless.

Oligarchy would be nice to have, save you a ton of money on military caste. The other policies really wouldn't be all that great midgame though. Being able to faith buy engineers is awesome though.

Commerce or Rationalism would be my picks. Their bonuses are better late game than the openers. Commerce is great for money and happy. Rationalism helps you stay ahead of the game.

Another thing you could do is take tradition to oligarchy and rationalism to secularism and free thought. Nice thing about rationalism is you don't have to finish it to get its best benefits. You may not even need secularism, free thought is usually a big enough bump to keep up on immortal. Only drawback is no faithbuy GPs or happiness. Oligarchy alone saves so much money late game for honor civs that it almost makes up for skipping commerce.

3. Like Jesusisnapolean said, at least get a pantheon. Goddess of the Hunt or Sun God can make up for the lack of growth in the honor tree. Avoid fertility rites though, it sucks in the early game and chances are you'll get converted before it gets good. Getting a full on religion isn't necessary and it may help to not have one. Let another civ convert you to theirs, it'll give you a positive modifier to help wash away a little warmonger hate. That way you can keep a trading partner while warmongering early.

I don't think honor is terrible to start with, not as good as tradition or liberty but not bad. Piety is the one I haven't been real successful with. I always feel like I have to tailor my religion to make up for gaps in the tree, mainly happiness and culture rather than do what I want with it. The fact that it depends so much on religion is a major drawback since the other three openers can found one too.
 
If I was going to open Honor, I would probably just make 1 city and capture the others at least until I got the +1 +2 policy. But, I cant see where I would ever want to do 6 straight Honor.
 
1.) How many own cities? I use to make 4-6 to claim lux and strategic spots and later to pump out armies. Also to make neighbours DoW and backstab me. On immortal this easily results in losing a city or two with makes me pissed. But maybe It's not so bad? What do you think?

2.) What SP after honor? For me this has been situational. Often i take some trad or liberty before rationalism but im very lost about it. Commerse is good to.

Ideas?

3.) religion. Should I get one? I like, if possible, getting a culture pantheon for faster early sp but I never really go for religion. I try to conquer the best one and give it to myself if the civ having it is close enough.

At last. What do you Immortal and deity players do when/if opening full honor?

I've played several Immortal games with pure Honor opens, also with no worker stealing, including one I just finished as Zulu with no Rationalism.

1: I settle 3 cities usually. Sometimes a fourth one later on a different continent, for army-buying. Transferring to wide/liberty style without Liberty (policy discount) is a very bad idea. Even if the lux and land deserve it.

2: Commerce. Fairly mandatory if you did early conquest. 1: Early conquest creates a lot of space between your cities, so the road discount is nice. 2: Puppets make merchants, so you might as well play along - Commerce merchants are fairly great. 3: as you expand in Industrial/Modern, you'll be buying a ton of Landsknechts to keep your garrisons filled. They never obsolete so you can start buying after all your discounts are online.

The disadvantage of Commerce is that you can't finish it without delaying Rationalism; but if you open Rationalism it's hard to finish Commerce before the industrial war rush. It really works best if you skip rationalism for an industrial domination win imo. Honor -> Commerce -> Autocracy.

3: Depends on land. If there's no good land pantheon for your start, I would skip.

Other:

-Like some other harsher strategies I usually wouldn't do an Honor open without a mining lux near the cap and some nearby forest. Early mining/chopping helps get around the lack of free monument / settler in capital, plus a nice cushion for happiness before I settle second city.

If you usually steal workers, keep with that for your Honor games - I don't, so on Honor opens I hard-build the settler before the monument then chop for monument, maybe chop for shrine too. I'm not going to be building any early wonders so this is the best use of forest.

-Other than jungle/coastal starts, there's no real reason not to open Honor. AI never wins before turn 360 on Immortal, and even with a very slow start you can get Diplo or SV by then.

You don't have to conquer everyone. However, you aren't going to win off an Honor start before 330 unless you do. Rationalism is obviously essential if you are not going Domination. It's a question of whether you are going to need techs after Electronics.

-Zulu, Denmark, Germany are my favorite for Honor. I've won with Aztec pure Honor opens, but found that Tradition would have been a lot better. I've tried with Poland for the free mid-game policies and Horse XP but went too wide, I'll have to revisit.

-Early conquest isn't essential, but it's just as well to kill off one civ and take the capitals of everyone else on your continent just to get a head-start on Domination. However, you have to follow this up with strong exploration and a solid plan for getting your economy and culture to a decent level.

Example: in my last game, Immortal / Large Continents / Zulu, I went for Astronomy as soon as I had conquered my two neighbors (with spears->Impi and comp bows), and founded World Congress to propose World Fair.

I swam over to settle one more city on the largest continent next to the most hated civ, Greece. This city was just for buying units in later, especially planes. The XP building bonuses in Honor makes rush-buying armies a lot more worthwhile. Even a trashy city can make all your XP buildings, then buy an army with your Commerce/Autocracy discounts instead of having to swim units over.

I finished Commerce and saved up $2400 so I could rush-buy three factories as soon as I got coal, so all my future policies went into Autocracy and so I had strong enough production to win World Fair. (I finished Big Ben just as World Fair started.) Next I teched Chemistry then Biology. Greece killed all my cannons haha but then was conquered with frigates and gatlings.

Because of the adopt-first effect (the other two ideologies get taken by the two strongest AIs, and other AIs follow them) I got up to 12 unhappiness from pressure around this time but pulled out of it even before most of my conquest thanks to World Fair and Futurism.

I teched flight to handle the rest of the big continent and Electronics to handle the 3 civs that were on continent 3. I wasn't ahead of the AI on tech at any time. I didn't finish Plastics until turn 298, the same turn I won Domination.

So, aggressive exploration was the most important factor in that game. It really helped that Great Lighthouse was built on my home continent.

Looking at my less successful Honor games, the failure to settle a foothold on a different continent and begin conquest there pretty much shut me out until Radar, which is a big hassle.
 
i dont like opening honor as first policy.. it tends to come too quick to be of good use.. i've barely got 3 units and wont be piling up the culture for kills when i'm spending half the time healing..

i like opening tradition first which gives a steady flow of culture coming in while giving me time to research archery and get a couple out there.. the only time i might open honor first is if i find an archery ruin within the first ten turns..

in general i stay away from honor in every game except some of the GotM domination VCs.. or if aztecs i'd take opener first as the payoff offsets the down time.. opener is good for songhai showing new camp spawns to make early gold.. if i ever do go full honor the game is typically over before honor is finished.. or it wouldnt matter what i'd pick next as there's only one or two civs left to finish off... but i'd go commerce if i had to pick a second.

i still dont understand why you'd cripple yourself forcing full honor tho.. fast domination maybe but science VC you're really crippling yourself badly..
 
i still dont understand why you'd cripple yourself forcing full honor tho.. fast domination maybe but science VC you're really crippling yourself badly..

Best policys is the two bottom ones and the finisher. Going honor and early war, I want them asap.

Tried open and mix trad and liberty but I don't get it to work out when I want early war.

And then It's the roleplay part. I think It's fun. After 2000 hours of tradition starts I like to try diffrent things!


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Thank all for good input. I'll start a immortal/fractal full honor viking fury as soon as I get home!!

2-3 citys rather then 4-6 seems like a good idea.




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I think It's fun. After 2000 hours of tradition starts I like to try diffrent things!
...
I'll start a immortal/fractal full honor viking fury as soon as I get home!!

2-3 citys rather then 4-6 seems like a good idea.

Nice! I agree completely that tradition starts get boring after a while.

and Yeah, 3 cities is enough with pure Honor.

Good luck with the Vikings!
 
i still dont understand why you'd cripple yourself forcing full honor tho.. fast domination maybe but science VC you're really crippling yourself badly..

because playing against an AI who is 2 eras behind even on the highest difficulty level totally breaks most mechanics of the game? limiting your own civ's progress makes a lot more play-styles and units relevant.
 
@ GhostSalsa thanks for all the good info! That was really detailed and I think I might give it a shot sometime...
 
i still dont understand why you'd cripple yourself forcing full honor tho.. fast domination maybe but science VC you're really crippling yourself badly..

:lol: Because it's fun to do something other than tradition and liberty every single game!

Seriously though there are some civs that totally thrive with an honor start. It makes Zulu's, Aztec's, China's, Germany's and Songhai's UAs stronger. You really do have to start early though, otherwise going honor is a waste. Gotta be honest, military tradition alone is worth going down the tree. Jaguars with march in the medieval era, before Caroleans are even a twinkle in Gustavus' eye? Yes please.

Want free workers? Take them from your nearest neighbors. I had a game with Assyria a little while ago where I popped archery off a ruin pretty early. As soon as I built my monument I pumped out 5 archers and DoWed the Songhai. Didn't cap cities, just slaughtered his troops pillaged his land and enslaved his workers and settlers. He literally fed me all the workers I needed for the first half of the game. Once I hit construction most of my archers were level 4 or higher. I had a better start that game than most of my liberty or tradition starts.
 
All set!

Got what seems to be a nice map for full honor so I thought I could share it if someone want to play along!

Harald

Immortal/Fractal/Standard/Standard

This is were you start. Walk a few steps south for a really nice surprise that may help out with one of the issues with a full honor start!

Spoiler :
 

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All set!

Got what seems to be a nice map for full honor so I thought I could share it if someone want to play along!

Harald

Immortal/Fractal/Standard/Standard

This is were you start. Walk a few steps south for a really nice surprise that may help out with one of the issues with a full honor start!

Spoiler :

I might try it out. I love Denmark. Obviously a rather bad starting location but that's what makes Honor fun.
 
I actually disagree about pantheons. Honor starts suffer with a lack of growth, production, culture, science and happiness. The early build queue must compensate for this. So I don't build a shrine unless it's a no-brainer like DF. That shrine costs you an archer, which costs you a CS quest, culture, and whatever that CS would have given you. Besides, on higher difficulties you can just pick up a neighbor's religion.

If you're dead-set on completing Honor before going with any other policies, I recommend allying a cultural CS and trying to complete Honor ASAP. The sooner you can dive into other useful policies the better, and you don't want your units sitting in cities. You can't afford it. So you need other sources of culture. After Honor, it really depends, but I like the Liberty opener for Pyramids or just dive straight into commerce. Autocracy if the game lasts long enough, for the courthouse happiness and double-rate tech theft, and happiness from all those armories you built. If the game lasts long enough to get Autocracy, you really ought to have armories. By then your XBs are losing steam, and you need to build artillery. Might as well have them start 17% stronger against cities.

I like to go right-side first, 2-city NC, then upgrade archers into CBs and start the warpath to get more cities. You're going to be happiness-starved, production-starved and growth-starved, and you want to be building units, not settlers. So I don't usually make a third city.But, I plant a third city if there's a unique resource with dirt that's just too good to pass up. Also, you better capture a city relatively early if you don't build a third, or you'll go over the unit supply cap.

Immortal is more forgiving, and easier to build a third city. Also, I try to build my 2nd/3rd city close to an AI. I want each of my cities close to a different AI. I'm going to try to make friends with one of them for trade routes and attack the other. That friendship won't last long but it still helps.
 
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