Are there things I don't know yet??

Von Naumann

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
79
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I've been playing C3C for a long time now, and I usually can figure out a way to win. However, not this time. :eek: Even though I have stacked the deck heavily in my favor, this particular time I just cannot seem to keep up, much less get ahead.
I'm wondering if there are things that I haven't discovered yet. Such as: are any new "abilities" accorded to the human player when he/she goes to the next level of difficulty; the AI's seem to have enhanced "powers" of "reproduction", for one thing.
Should I study up on the "problem" Civs in encyclopaedia??? Are the Iroquois particularly warlike? Do they f**k like rabbits???
As y'all can probably tell, I'm getting rather frustrated. :lol:
 
I've been playing C3C for a long time now, and I usually can figure out a way to win. However, not this time. :eek: Even though I have stacked the deck heavily in my favor, this particular time I just cannot seem to keep up, much less get ahead.
What level/maps do you play at/on habitually, and what level/map are you trying to play at/on right now?
I'm wondering if there are things that I haven't discovered yet.
Almost certainly. I've seen posts on here from quite experienced high-level players describing things they've just learned, even after playing the game for 10 years!
Such as: are any new "abilities" accorded to the human player when he/she goes to the next level of difficulty;
No. What the human has (at all levels) is the ability to do things the AI can't/won't ever do, like long-term strategising, optimising terrain improvements, city and worker micromanagement, short-rushing/cash-rushing, etc.
the AI's seem to have enhanced "powers" of "reproduction", for one thing.
Yes they do -- at all levels above Regent, the AI gets to build and research for less than the human -- e.g. at Emperor, the AICivs get a 20% discount on everything (on top of any trait-based discounts), so e.g. a unit that would cost the human 30s (like the MW), costs the AI 24s, and a 200s-Wonder like Colossus costs the AI only 160s.
Should I study up on the "problem" Civs in encyclopaedia???
No, a far better idea would be to study up on the various tricks that you can use to counter the AI's production advantages. Look at the CFC War Academy for some concrete ideas that have been tried and tested up to quite high levels.
Are the Iroquois particularly warlike? Do they f**k like rabbits???
They are Agricultural (in C3C), which means they get a food-production bonus even in Despotism (i.e. fast city growth/ expansion), and at A/D/M = 3/1/2 the MW is arguably one of the best early 'attack' units in the game -- so yes, they will be problematic if their start position gives them access to even half-decent terrain and Horses.
 
Posting a save really helps!

- are any new "abilities" accorded to the human player when he/she goes to the next level of difficulty;
No, everything Tribe related stays the same. The AI changes though.... the AI mechanics don't change it's just that they get bonusses when you go up in difficulty.


Code:
[b]AI Bonuses   C3C                              Chieftain   Warlord   Regent   Monarch   Emperor  Demigod    Deity    Sid[/b]
[i]AI additional starting units[/i]
Number of extra defensive units:                  0          0         0        2         4        6         8       12
Number of extra offensive units:                  0          0         0        1         2        3         4        6
Number of extra type 1 (usually settlers):        0          0         0        0         0        1         1        2
Number of extra type 2 (usually workers):         0          0         0        0         1        2         2        4

[i]AI unit support bonuses[/i]
Additional free support for each AI civ:          0          0         0        4         8       12        16       24
Bonus for each city:                              0          0         0        1         2        3         4        8

AI max government transition in turns:            *          *         *        4         3        2         2        1        
Cost factor (player is 10):                      20         12        10        9         8        7         6        4
AI to AI trade rate:                            110        120       130      140       150      160       170      200

[b]AI and player factors:[/b]
Number of citizens born content:                  4          3         2        2         1        1         1        1
Number of citizens quelled by military:           1          1         1        1         1        1         1        1
Attack bonus against barbarians:                800        400       200      100        50       25         0        0
Percentage of optimal cities for corruption:    100         95        90       85        80       70        60       50

[b]Optimal number of cities per world size (for corruption purposes):[/b]
Tiny        - 14
Small       - 17
Standard    - 20
Large       - 28
Huge        - 36


- Should I study up on the "problem" Civs in encyclopaedia??
Or here: Individual Civ Reviews - by Ision.
The acticles are about how the human can play with them, but you can imagine that a seafaring/militaristic civ with an early UU (Vikings?) is going to cause you more problems early on an island map than someone else.

However, an Industrious and Scientific civ (more production power and more techs) with some aggressiveness issues (Persia) will cause problems, even though they are not militaristic, that doesn't mean they won't use that easy-to-produce, technologically superior army on you.

Are the Iroquois particularly warlike?
They are 2 out of 5 on the Aggression Level. They are Agricultural and Commercial, so they get more food and more money per city square (with some other things), so I wouldn't put them in the 'warmongers' bracket. But...

Do they f**k like rabbits???
they grow faster yes, and they are able to feed all their kids and keep em happy. :)
 
'everything' is this including techs? So do they only need 80% of the lightbulbs?

They trade their techs with each other for less gold too. And they get a smaller food box!
 
Thanks for your input.
I'm playing at Monarch level, on a huge world, with 10 competing civs. The continent I'm on has the Egyptians, Zulus, Iroquois, and Dutch.
My "stacked deck" consists of 8 traits (incl. commercial and agricultural) and 4 starting techs (Bronze Working, Map Making, Iron Working, and Literature - so that I can go after the Great Library early).
My latest strategy was to concentrate mostly on military production, although at some point I try to dedicate one or two towns to pumping out settlers. Even with this, my military comparison to the Iroquois never gets out of "weak" (vs. Egypt, Zulus, and Dutch it ranges from average to strong).
I go after The Great Lighthouse right away, then The Great Library, and later on Leonardo's Workshop (to cut my upgrade costs in half).
I've been building libraries in every town (to enhance research), and after education I've been building universities.
I build embassies in every civ too...
If I can survive ancient times and the middle ages, then I've usually got a decent shot...
But even then, my military comparison to the Iroquois seems stuck on "weak"...
It's all rather frustrating...:crazyeye:
 
Thanks for your input.
I'm playing at Monarch level, on a huge world, with 10 competing civs. The continent I'm on has the Egyptians, Zulus, Iroquois, and Dutch.
My "stacked deck" consists of 8 traits (incl. commercial and agricultural) and 4 starting techs (Bronze Working, Map Making, Iron Working, and Literature - so that I can go after the Great Library early).
My latest strategy was to concentrate mostly on military production, although at some point I try to dedicate one or two towns to pumping out settlers. Even with this, my military comparison to the Iroquois never gets out of "weak" (vs. Egypt, Zulus, and Dutch it ranges from average to strong).
I go after The Great Lighthouse right away, then The Great Library, and later on Leonardo's Workshop (to cut my upgrade costs in half).
I've been building libraries in every town (to enhance research), and after education I've been building universities.
I build embassies in every civ too...
If I can survive ancient times and the middle ages, then I've usually got a decent shot...
But even then, my military comparison to the Iroquois seems stuck on "weak"...
It's all rather frustrating...:crazyeye:

Build offensive units, never defensive ones (unless Riflemen or above if needed for border defense or escorting attacking/artillery stacks)

You will not be perceived as weak
 
Build offensive units, never defensive ones (unless Riflemen or above if needed for border defense or escorting attacking/artillery stacks)
To add to that, build Veteran units rather than Regulars whenever possible, since Vets are 'stronger' per unit. Similarly (this was pointed out to me recently), building more cheap units is often better than building fewer expensive units (especially if you are resource-limited), because the AI also 'values' quantity over quality. If you haven't already, I would strongly recommend that you also read 'Warmongering 101' for some general advice and 'Inner Workings of the Military Advisor' for the numbers on which that advice was based.

Examples:
2 Warriors (2*10s=20s, A=1+1) are counted as 'stronger' than 1 Archer (20s, A=2), which is itself 'stronger' than 1 Spear (20s, A=1) -- and Warriors can be upgraded to Swords as soon as you have access to Iron, and the cash (60g per unit, before Leo's)
Less intuitively, 3 Chariots (3*20s=60s, A=1+1+1) are not only 'stronger' than 2 Horses (2*30s=60s, A=2+2), you get 3 units for the price of 2, and the Chariot->Horse upgrade costs only 30g per unit, which is a lot less than the Warrior->Sword upgrade. And redlined Chariots/Horses have a 50% chance to retreat (to heal, if you're careful), which Warriors/Swords don't.
So if you can build two high-shield Barracks cities in the early game, get them to 5 SPT and 7 SPT, and pump out Warriors and Archers/Chariots, even if you can't build anything else.

Also, regarding this...
My "stacked deck" consists of 8 traits (incl. commercial and agricultural) and 4 starting techs (Bronze Working, Map Making, Iron Working, and Literature...
So you're not actually playing Conquests, you're playing a mod... ;) I can win at Monarch without doing any of this, and I'm not the world's best Civ3 player by a long shot -- although there are (or have been) plenty of them on here...

The above 'military strength' calculations also show that you're not really doing yourself any favours by giving yourself IronWorking at the start. If you don't have Iron on your turf, you can't use it anyway. If you do, and you hook it up immediately, you won't be able to build Warriors anymore -- which forces you to build Swords at 30s, instead of 3 times as many Warriors for the same shield cost (and one-third the build time per unit).

Besides, the AI luuuurrrves IronWorking, so you can almost always trade for it, at Monarch and likely also at Emperor (although less reliably at DG+) -- after you've already built a massive Warrior-army to upgrade -- by beelining down the less favoured middle branches of the AA tech-tree and getting a monopoly on e.g. CoL, Philo (NB take those two -- in that order -- for the Republic-slingshot!), Literature or Maps.

And this...
I go after The Great Lighthouse right away, then The Great Library, and later on Leonardo's Workshop (to cut my upgrade costs in half).
Maybe, juuust maybe, your military is weak because you are pouring shields into these Wonders, instead of building units...? As Theov points out, even at Monarch, every AICiv gets a Settler, a Worker, and 3 mil-units to start with -- you start with only a Settler+Worker, so you're already 'weak' against, well, everyone! Although the AI's production-discount at Monarch is only 10% (and it's very wasteful), the longer you wait to start building mil-units, and the fewer towns you devote to doing so (because you've tied up the best ones with multi-turn megaprojects), the 'weaker' you will get -- and the more (often) you will be forced into paying tribute. Perhaps you should also read this article too... ;)

But if you insist on having your Wonders, then remember that you don't actually need to wait until you get a tech before you start accumulating shields for them. Instead, you can start 'prebuilds' 10-20T ahead of time, i.e. high-shield projects (e.g. Courthouses, Markets, Aqueducts, the Forbidden Palace, other Wonders) which you can use as 'shield-banks' for later conversion into your chosen Wonder once you get the tech for it -- provided that you haven't 'rushed' any shields into the project with e.g. forest-chops, unit-disbands, whipped citizens, etc.

And BTW, in a coastal city, the Colossus is a better use of Wonder-shields than the GLight...

And this...
I've been building libraries in every town (to enhance research), and after education I've been building universities.
That's fine, so long as your Sci% is also kept high enough for it to be worthwhile.

Just remember that all 'multiplier' buildings only provide their advertised benefits if your Income spending percentages are set accordingly, especially in the early game when most towns are still small (<Pop6), and/or producing <10-15 uncorrupted trade per turn (when the game's rounding-down of the Trade --> Tax.Sci.Lux conversions has a much more noticeable effect). This article explains it in detail.

So Libs and especially Unis need a decent Sci% (say, &#8805;20%) to boost a small town's beaker-output noticeably, whereas Markets and Banks only work as tax multipliers if Tax% (= 100% - Sci% - Lux%) is likewise &#8805;20%.

But again, all the time your cities are building improvements, they aren't building units (and don't forget the maintenance costs)...
 
If maintenance costs are a problem, either build less stuff, or get more cities

Unit costs shouldn't be a problem - you can be extremely over the 'limit' and still be making a ton of cash

That being said, Marketplaces and Banks combined with Smith's Trading Company and size 12+ cities should get you more cash than you can spend

Add in Stock Exchanges and Wall Street and the occasional Hospital and combine the lot with being in Republic...it's just obscene

Personally, I limit this stuff to my main cities - the best 5, 8-10 at most

Everything else builds either military or artillery

This is assuming you aren't taking over the world with Swordsmen or Knights

Coastal cities will also bring in a lot of cash, though not much productivity

Most cities get a Library - obviously the main cities use the beakers, and the border ones need it to prevent flips

If a city is surrounded by 2, 3, 4 other cities, I'll rush a Temple in there as well

Universities I'm only building if I'm going for a Space Race victory - they're expensive, and costly to maintain too

I think they only do so much up to a certain point, and the only way you'll get more science at that point is by specialists

Depends how much pedantic mutli-tasking you want to do really

Ignore all the above if you're going for 100k Cultural victory - build everything in sight

Regardless, always get a Barracks down early in your most productive city (either capital or 2nd city if good land), in between building warriors, settlers and workers

While you're waiting for your city to grow again, you can get a unit or two built each time

Probably Archers, but possibly Horsemen or Swordsmen if you get the tech and resource discovered quick enough

Very rarely get declared on when I refuse a demand if I've got decent offensive units

If I do, it's the usual suspects - Hittites, Mongols, Zulu, Arabia, Russia. Inca etc
 
I want to thank all of you for your input. I need to study/play the current scenario that I've made for myself, to see what I can learn. I do, still, have a couple of questions:
1. Is there an "attacker's advantage" in C3C? There seems to be, at times, most times,

2. What does a "resource rich" area look like? Some forest, white triangles, water???

Thanks guys (and girls, any are here)... :D
 
1) Actually there are only defensive bonuses, none for the offense. For example defenders across a river get 25%; on hills, in cities (7+ pop) or towns with walls get 50%; on mountains or in metros (13+ pop) 100% (!), etc. "Fortified" units get 25% for standing still at least one turn. Sometimes it seems like archers or horsies have an advantage over spears, but that may be deceptive. Just when you think you can take two towns at once with limited forces, the RNG rears its ugly head and you wind up taking neither due to heroic resistance from the erstwhile bronze-age bozos.

2) There are 3 types of resources: Strategic, luxury, or bonus. Strategics are necessary mostly for building military units, luxuries mostly for keeping your people happy, and bonuses for adding food, shields or commerce (gold) to city production. The first 2 types can be traded, the bonus ones cannot. All of them can be valuable, and worth fighting for.

A "resource rich" area for your capital might include cattle, wheat (especially on floodplains), game, fish, gold, etc. Those are mostly food bonuses, which are especially valuable in the beginning. Also a luxury resource (i.e. dyes, ivory, gems) or two to keep the people happy. You won't see your first strategic resources until you research The Wheel (Horses) or Iron Working (Iron).
 
Veteran Archer/Horseman = Regular Spearman (fortified) on grass/tundra/flood plains/desert etc

It's more or less exactly 50/50

If it's a city, hills, mountains, or it's veteran, Spearman has the advantage, fortified or not

If you want to be certain (relative) that you'll take out Spearmen (even in cities or on hills) get Swordsmen

Or wait until Knights

That's been my experience

Edit: the above applies to Knights and Pikemen too

Veteran Knight = Regular Pikeman, fortified on grassland, plains, desert, tundra etc

As soon as you make the Pikeman veteran, or put a city or hills into the mix, the Pikeman gets the advantage
 
2. What does a "resource rich" area look like? Some forest, white triangles, water???

Having both food tiles (irrigated grassland) and shield tiles (forest and mined hills, mountains and plains) in your city radius is very valuable. First grow fast as hell to pop 6, then switch to shield tiles and build a worker, settler or an aqueduct, or anything else when you're at pop 12.

Rivers are great for your economy, they give 1 extra commerce per tile, 1.5 extra with library and marketplace and 2 with bank and university. With Leonardo's Workshop 1.5 gold can be made into a shield. So a river tile can be seen as a tile with 2 shields instead of 1, imagine what that does for your exponential growth, having double the income.

Ocean gives 1 extra commerce too but you don't get any shields from them (until very late in the game) and 1 shield is always better than 1 piece of gold. Unless you're researching like crazy, but even then you'll have to build city improvements, and rushing one of those costs 4 gold per shield.

BTW: Nice signature :)
 
Again, thanks to everyone for your input, advice, and comments. I started over with the scenario that I was asking about, shifted my production emphasis somewhat (lots of arrows, swords, and horsies early on) and I managed a pretty good space race victory. I found out, a while ago, that in total regicide, you can use your "kings" to explore and find goody huts. They move fairly quickly and are not exactly weak (i.e., they can usually beat the barbs and get gold from them). The increased rate of techs found will usually get me a good sling-shot effect into the middle ages, so that when I get to feudalism (usually before everyone else) I can then produce more "modern" offensive units. Helps a lot.

Anyway, once again, thank you all.:D
 
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