Yeah, but for that example of the pantheon on second turn - they'd have to have gotten the ten faith on the first turn - I'd assume a CS wouldn't generate right next to the civ starting point, so I thought the ancient ruin was the more likely culprit there. But, yeah, their extra warrior/scouts/etc. also help them find those CSs faster.
Remove the free faith from Religious CS
- Thread starter Autoclave
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Yeah, but for that example of the pantheon on second turn - they'd have to have gotten the ten faith on the first turn - I'd assume a CS wouldn't generate right next to the civ starting point, so I thought the ancient ruin was the more likely culprit there. But, yeah, their extra warrior/scouts/etc. also help them find those CSs faster.
TheGrandWazoo
Warlord
The problem isn't that the AI is beating you to the first pantheon. The problem is that its random. If you happen to start with 2 religious CS near you you'll get first pantheon without any effort.
I'd go as far as to say that this would be ok if the same were true for other CS types. i.e. if you started with 2 cultural CS near you, that gives you the first policy off the bat. Or maybe meeting a maritime grows your nearest city.
Or perhaps if the religious CS didn't give gold as well as faith when you meet them. It's basically a dice roll on whether the CS near you, or the AI gives faith in addition to what they normally give.
TheGrandWazoo
Warlord
I thought Ancient ruins that give faith don't come into play until turn 20 or so?
Amen! I don't quite understand the OP's point other than that it was saying "I didn't get the first pantheon. Boo hoo. Change the whole game so that it never happens to me again."
There are plenty of good pantheons. If you're the Celts starting near forests, I'm not so sure why you'd be so wound up about not getting Desert Folklore anyway. People win countless games with all the pantheons. Learning to get the most use out of different pantheons, policies etc. can be much of the fun of the game and is what offers it great variety.
This is not a game of chess, where you have the chance to control your own destiny completely at all times. This is a game about building a civilization in as much a "real world" setting as the creators could make it. In the real world, stuff happens. Random stuff. All the time. Battles that shaped history often hinged on small things like a change of weather, one particularly brave or stupid decision by a low-level commander, or someone getting sick that day.
The great thing about this game? You can tailor it to play however you want. Mad because you couldn't get first pantheon as the Celts? Hint: Don't play the Celts. There are dozens of other civs to play if that makes you mad. Play with few or no CSes; that will solve your problem.. Restart and try again. I'm sure you'll get the first pantheon with the Celts in most games. Play on a lower difficulty. Whatever. [And that's not even considering the even more extreme flexibility of modding!]
Saying that the entire game should change for everyone because someone can't deal with a little adversity in one played game is not exactly constructive or reasonable, is it? Many people like the challenge of dealing with adversity, as every civilization and person on Earth has had to do at times.
A little more zen and reflection, and a little less anger and tunnel-vision works wonders for the enjoyment of this game!
Really? That's quite possible, I didn't realize. Then I have no friggin clue how the AI could get a pantheon on turn 2!
zenmaster
I've explained again my opinion behind the original post. Please read it. I am primarily against this randomness which on one side the devs are trying to control by not allowing faith ruins until turn 20, but on the other hand they allow for faith city states.
See? How do you explain this?
And if we talked about adapting to random and playing with it as part of a core gameplay mechanic, there is X-Com. Civilization is about taking the advantage of the situation that you are given and making the right choices and the right sacrifices in order to achieve your goal. There are certain random elements in civilization like spy doing CS coups and so on, but the core of civilization was never the randomness. Otherwise you could have awarded the win to a random civ from turn 1.
I've explained again my opinion behind the original post. Please read it. I am primarily against this randomness which on one side the devs are trying to control by not allowing faith ruins until turn 20, but on the other hand they allow for faith city states.
See? How do you explain this?
And if we talked about adapting to random and playing with it as part of a core gameplay mechanic, there is X-Com. Civilization is about taking the advantage of the situation that you are given and making the right choices and the right sacrifices in order to achieve your goal. There are certain random elements in civilization like spy doing CS coups and so on, but the core of civilization was never the randomness. Otherwise you could have awarded the win to a random civ from turn 1.
I agree with zenmaster. Arabia's game is not over if they don't get Desert Folklore, and the Celts UA is not going to be made any worse by getting the 2nd or even 3rd pantheon in most games, and even if it is, again, it's not game over. I am guessing the OP re-rolls bad starts?
So what you are basically saying is that you are ok with pantheons being awarded randomly without puting and effort into acquiring them?
Moriarte
Immortal
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That's a wrong observation. You can get a chance of faith from a ruin after someone founded first pantheon.
And religion is not core to civ5 - minor help you don't actually "need", even at deity. Plenty of times i raised 50+ faith without founding a religion or pantheon.
I like mystical random aspect of faith
.Really, the way the religion is designed, you can often gets benefits from it even if you don't found one (which has happened to me plenty of times). One game of Venice, I think I managed to build every religious building in the city because people kept converting me!
I definitely agree though that it's boring that religious CS's give faith, and everything else just gives gold. I mean I like gold, but it would certainly be more interesting if the different CSs gave more theme appropriate gifts.
I definitely agree though that it's boring that religious CS's give faith, and everything else just gives gold. I mean I like gold, but it would certainly be more interesting if the different CSs gave more theme appropriate gifts.
I don't think that's what he's saying, because that statement is not entirely true....
1) Discovering CSes does take effort. You need to build and/or send units exploring intelligently.
2) Most pantheons (in many games, all pantheons) are acquired by other forms of effort as well, mainly building religious buildings. It is rare to get the case where you can get a pantheon fully from contacting CSes.
3) The game is not rolling an 8 or 12-sided die to dish out pantheons to civs. It is not that type of random process that your statement is simplifying it to.
Even if contact with CSes alone was to enable a civ to start a pantheon, there's no disconnect between game and real life. Most areas of the greatest faith were founded in close proximity to other areas of great faith. The lasting monotheistic religions all developed in one relatively small area of the Middle East, and the lasting non-monotheistic religions developed in and around India. If your relatively cultureless and faithless tribe encounters a tribe with strong faith, of course yours will be greatly impacted and influenced, and more likely to develop a strong faith as well.
I think the game mechanic in question here reflects history well, actually. So if your initial tribe happens to be located in an area of strong faith, you're likely to develop strong faith before others who aren't located in those areas. That's just how things work.
And regardless of all that, I think the other poster's point was similar to mine. Not getting one particular pantheon is not the end of the world. The getting-faith-points-from-meeting-Religious-CS mechanic as is helps encourage and reward exploration and also reflects reality to some degree [I would say a large degree]. It makes the game more interesting (as opposed to simply getting the 30/15 gold from meeting a civ), and that's a good thing. As others have said, getting something else from other types of civs would be nice too.
dont forget u still get 4 faith if meeting as 2nd! if u really would change it, the 2nd should still give you the half benefit.
I am okay with some faith handed out for exploration, and don't see it as being materially different from a civ getting 20 culture in the first five turns which is obviously a huge head start.
edit: More generally, what I am okay with is uncertainty and some things being less than a sure thing, especially early on, and especially as regards religion, which by design is something you are not supposed to have total control over...and the Celts' UA will give them the 1st or 2nd pantheon, probably 9 times out of 10, no?
Celts can do it if their starting city has enough forest and they find a religious CS on turn 1.
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