Nationalism vs. Internationalism

The Yankee · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
I do not support the U.S. invasion into Iraq. However bad it was, it only made the situation worse. I would support an Iraqui Revolution, as was coming.

Samuelson said:
That is not what I am saying. It is obvious that people will care more for people they know than people they don't. But it is not natural for people to care more for one group of people over another if they do not know either.

Luckily for us, even though every thread in OT seems to go back to Iraq, at least Iraq has some useful scenarios that would flesh out what you may support.

So given this...if there were an uprising in Iraq, what is the good internationalist to do to support it?

How would it differ from the massive rebellion in 1991?

I also do not support the U.S. giving Sadam Huessein bioliogical weapons including nerve gase. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm

That's fantastic. Nobody said you should, even 25 years after the fact.

The world community is run by people who love power. That is why people who have so much power decided to gain those positions. These people are selfish and care only about themselves and their profits. They do not represent the average person who does care about liberty and freedom for all people.

This is more for another topic but I will say that if nobody ever wanted to lead, then we wouldn't have a country guided by anyone. Any "average" person thrust into such a situation might also behave as you say the rich of the world act.

plarq · Aug 11, 2007

I don't defend nations, I defend constitutions that I support, no matter which corner of the world it resides.

Winner · Aug 11, 2007

I am an EU-patriot - does it make me a nationalist or internationalist?

Lotus49 · Aug 11, 2007

El_Machinae said:
I'm a 'nice guy ist'.

I want what's best for people who try to be nice. In fact, I'm happy to engage in all types of long-term teamwork with people who've shown to be moral individuals.

unNice people can have nice lives too, I don't mind unless they're hurting others to get their fortunes.

Well then your ideology flies in the face of human nature more so than Communism, Marxism, Leninism, or the newly re-branded Internationalism we have here.

Btw, I think all people who call all nationalists racists are... *cough* actually I don't even care, really.

Catharsis · Aug 11, 2007

Samuelson said:
I didn't say that having empathy for things happening in your country above other countries was the definition of nationalism. I am only saying that that is an aspect of nationalism. Definition 1 immidiately implies that you are not as interested in other countries.

Only if that's what you want it to imply. I am 'devoted to the interests and culture of my nation' in as much as I am a monarchist, somewhat interested in the politics of Britain, and enjoy watching the game of cricket. But that doesn't mean I am not 'interested' in other countries. Just because I'm a nationalist doesn't mean I need to set fire to Muslims under Definition 1.

Neither the first or second definitions implies racism from nationalism (the second one is merely a political ideology). The third one could possibly be construed as racist, but that would make you an imperialist, which can also be seen as equivalent to racism (and as you are a Marxist, you probably do see it as such).

na·tion·al·ism (năsh'ə-nə-lĭz'əm, năsh'nə-)
n.
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

Norseone · Aug 11, 2007

I believe you can care about and be proud of your country and still care about other people in the world. And, I think suggesting otherwise is foolish. Some of the most nationalistic people i know are in the peace corps. They joined because they want to show the rest of the world that America really is a good place, and want to help the rest of the world be as well off as we are here. But they are very proud of america.

On the contrary, I think people who only care about themselves above their nation and the world populace truly are the dangerous ones, and i feel often they are the ones calling for an end to nationalism.

CCA · Aug 11, 2007

The Internationale
Unites The Human Race!!!

C~G · Aug 11, 2007

Winner said:
I am an EU-patriot - does it make me a nationalist or internationalist?

Does you internationalism also consider muslims as your brothers?

If not, then you are EU-nationalist.

El_Machinae · Aug 11, 2007

Lotus49 said:
Well then your ideology flies in the face of human nature more so than Communism, Marxism, Leninism, or the newly re-branded Internationalism we have here.

Maybe. I'm not so sure, though. It's a pretty big world, and so I'm quite capable of choosing only to deal with moral people without really hurting myself (or for much opportunity cost). Plus, dealing with moral people allows me to invest more aggressively with them, meaning I can get greater profits.

Verbose · Aug 12, 2007

VRWCAgent said:
Nationalism has nothing to do with racism. There is no way to equate the two at all, that's just silly.

Well, yes. For the most part.

VRWCAgent said:
National borders have nothing to do with the race of people within those borders. That's just European, old world thinking that's best left to wither on the vine.

And there came the other part.

And somehow you also managed to insinuate that racism is somehow specifically European? Well, at times and in places it has, but not necessarily. And the opposite is just as true.

http://www.tamilnation.org/selfdetermination/nation/renan.htm

bhsup · Aug 12, 2007

Verbose said:
Well, yes. For the most part.

And there came the other part.

And somehow you also managed to insinuate that racism is somehow specifically European? Well, at times and in places it has, but not necessarily. And the opposite is just as true.

http://www.tamilnation.org/selfdetermination/nation/renan.htm

Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Bad wording I guess and I apologize for anyone who thought I was making a blanket statement that Europe is racist. What I did mean to suggest is that Europe still seems to view, at least from what I gather from posts here and such, what it means to be "French" or German" or "Polish" or whatever as more or less an ethnic thing.

On the other hand, I think this TV spot from the Ad Council illustrates beautifully what I personally see as being an American is. The video quality isn't very good, but you get the idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_5XIOn68Hk

Here is another link, but I couldn't get these videos to work:
http://www.adcouncil.org/default.aspx?id=141

As the video states... E pluribus unum!

ulsterman88 · Aug 12, 2007

British citizen and nationalist

Nationalism vs. Internationalism

Are you a Nationalist or an Internationalist?

I live in the U.S. and I am a Nationalist.

I live in the U.S. and I am an Internationalist.

I live in the E.U. and I am a Nationalist.

I live in the E.U. and I am an Internationalist.

I live somewhere else and I am a Nationalist.

I live somewhere else and I am an Internationalist.

The Yankee

The New Yawker

plarq

Crazy forever

Winner

Diverse in Unity

Lotus49

Emperor

Catharsis

catch u on the flip scythe

Norseone

Emperor

CCA

Emperor

C~G

Untouchable

El_Machinae

Colour vision since 2018

Verbose

Deity

bhsup

Deity

ulsterman88

4-2 Rangers rule supreme!

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