Svartalfar - Council of Esus or Fellowship of Leaves?

Luckmann · Feb 1, 2009

Arrgh, I'm completely torn on this. :twitch:

What's your favourite combination and why?

On one hand, I love the Fellowship of Leaves. The Fauns are strong for their cost and readily available, ancient forests gives me plenty of food, and Guardian of Nature is such a great civic I almost feel like I'm cheating.

Someone mentioned putting off world improvements before you can spread forests everywhere, but I've had no problem to spread forests on preexisting improvements - I also often tend to put workers on automatic, and it works out pretty well.

On the other hand, the Council of Esus seems incredible when it comes to synergizing with the Svartalfar and my comparatively high dependance on recon units. The prospect of sending assassins, possibly supported by rangers.. intrigues me. It also seems to have an extremely good hero unit, Gibbon Goetia, which I'd love to have.

I haven't tried any of the heroes, and being a complete newcomer to FfH2, not really tried the would-be dramatic switch from a long-term Fellowship civilization to the Council. :crazyeye:

For reference, I'm playing as a custom leader (Varenios Silveric) with Arcane/Charismatic/Defender traits.

cIV_khanh93 · Feb 1, 2009

well, i would go with FoL->CoE use FoL JUST for getting priests. get a lot, since they dont leave when you switch. like seriously, dont get addicted. run guardian of nature, but be ready to starve out your population for the switch (running a civic that allows unlimited x specialists would be a good idea, not sure if its feasible though). See if you can get lucky and have alazkan be able to cast mask (HN on and off at will, but he needs to have the CoE religion)

Kyroshill · Feb 1, 2009

I only recently learned how valuable it is to adopt an early religion before shifting to CoE....

While playing Sidar... I spent some time as OO before switching....

Then later.... I found out that I could upgrade my cultists to druids!!

They kept all of their divine spells and took them all to the third spell level... my druids could summon kraken!!

Plus as druids they had access to the Nature sphere as well.... making them doubly advantageous!!

cabbagemeister · Feb 1, 2009

I know it's very contra-lore, but I just finished a Svartalfar game where I went FoL -> Empyrean. This turned me Neutral and gave me access to the Vicar->Druid upgrade, which let me run around with Commando Druids who could cast both Crown of Brilliance and Entangle (plus Chalid, of course). THAT was a fun game. I'm not sure I see the FoL->CoE alternative being quite as effective.

Luckmann · Feb 1, 2009

Thanks for the input, people.

cabbagemeister said:
I know it's very contra-lore, but I just finished a Svartalfar game where I went FoL -> Empyrean. This turned me Neutral and gave me access to the Vicar->Druid upgrade, which let me run around with Commando Druids who could cast both Crown of Brilliance and Entangle (plus Chalid, of course). THAT was a fun game. I'm not sure I see the FoL->CoE alternative being quite as effective.

I know it's wierd to go a bit off-topic in my own thread, but yeah, I've been thinking about doing something completely contra-lore too, like playing a round of Ljosalfar and go for the Ashen Veil, or something similar.

That's a pretty wild suggestion, by the way, with the Vicar->Druid.

And if CoE were available early on, the choice would've been much, much easier. But now it's a switch, as you say. :twitch:

Edit: Maybe I should just try to take some other religion, and then switch to Council of Esus. Fellowship of Leaves creates a kind of dependancy, and maybe I can completely avoid this seperation heartbreat if I go for something else.

Micky Onimusha · Feb 1, 2009

It depends if you get dependant on GoN. You'll still have your AFs left once you switch, so your economy should remain just as stable as before when making the FoL > CoE switch. The only trouble is newly taken land won't feel the FoL benefit.

Luckmann · Feb 1, 2009

Micky Onimusha said:
It depends if you get dependant on GoN. You'll still have your AFs left once you switch, so your economy should remain just as stable as before when making the FoL > CoE switch. The only trouble is newly taken land won't feel the FoL benefit.

And the loss of Guardian of Nature civic, of course.

Edit: And I only realized what you had said after actually posting, so ignore this musing. When you said "GoN" I read it as "Fellowship of Leaves". Sorry.

Zechnophobe · Feb 1, 2009

Benefits of CoE:
Gibbon
Shadowriders
Not having forces kicked out of lands when declaring war.

Benefits of FoL:
Consistent Ancient Forest coverage
Guardian of Nature giving you the equivalent of infinite happiness
Priests that can bloom
Killer Tree
Earlier and easier to spread.

I honestly don't think there is much comparison. Gibbon is an archmage, and good as that goes. But the other two perks are pretty minimal. Shadowriders are pretty late game (And completely off your tech path) and not getting kicked out of territory is of minimal use to a Raider civ that has commando on all it's units.

Luckmann · Feb 1, 2009

Zechnophobe said:
Benefits of CoE:
Gibbon
Shadowriders
Not having forces kicked out of lands when declaring war.

Benefits of FoL:
Consistent Ancient Forest coverage
Guardian of Nature giving you the equivalent of infinite happiness
Priests that can bloom
Killer Tree
Earlier and easier to spread.

I honestly don't think there is much comparison. Gibbon is an archmage, and good as that goes. But the other two perks are pretty minimal. Shadowriders are pretty late game (And completely off your tech path) and not getting kicked out of territory is of minimal use to a Raider civ that has commando on all it's units.

Unless I've missunderstood it (according to this), Esus also gets Hidden Nationality on all recon units that has the Council of Esus religion. Also, I don't use the Raider trait, so no Commando upgrades for me!

But the way you put it, it really feels like Fellowship of Leaves ends up the stronger faction. If only recon units could pillage, I could much easier be persuaded otherwise (especially if I played Faeryl). But that's just buts and ifs.

Zechnophobe · Feb 1, 2009

Luckmann said:
Unless I've missunderstood it (according to this), Esus also gets Hidden Nationality on all recon units that has the Council of Esus religion. Also, I don't use the Raider trait, so no Commando upgrades for me!

But the way you put it, it really feels like Fellowship of Leaves ends up the stronger faction. If only recon units could pillage, I could much easier be persuaded otherwise (especially if I played Faeryl). But that's just buts and ifs.

The ability hide nationality is granted by a unit having the CoE religion. Just having CoE in a city will cause recon units built there to gain the religion, meaning you need not follow it to actually gain the benefits.

The most common gripe about CoE, is that most of the 'perks' to it you get without actually needing to adopt it as a religion. (Nox Noctis, Mask nationality, undercouncil, etc).

Luckmann · Feb 1, 2009

Zechnophobe said:
The ability hide nationality is granted by a unit having the CoE religion. Just having CoE in a city will cause recon units built there to gain the religion, meaning you need not follow it to actually gain the benefits.

The most common gripe about CoE, is that most of the 'perks' to it you get without actually needing to adopt it as a religion. (Nox Noctis, Mask nationality, undercouncil, etc).

Hahaha, oh wow. Thanks a lot for that tidbit. I had no idea. I guess you learn something new every day.

That opens up a world of possibilities for me that I didn't even know I had.

PekkaR · Feb 1, 2009

Zechnophobe said:
Benefits of CoE:
Gibbon
Shadowriders
Not having forces kicked out of lands when declaring war.

Just adding:
- no diplomacy penalties with other religions for following CoE
- visibility to all cities where CoE spreads (May require holy city but not the shrine? Surprisingly good for discovering completely new civs when most of the map is unexplored due to circumstances.)

Gibbon can explore enemy territory without open borders. Especially with Svartalfar who have Shadow mana from palace and Raiders, having him roam around summoning hidden nationality pillaging Mistforms is tempting. (I haven't tried this one but saw someone else mention it.)

Avoiding investment in arcane line makes him a little better than Hemah too. Picking up Undercouncil is often fairly high priority.

Shadowriders aren't necessarily out of your way tech-wise. Svartalfar have a secondary tech line through archers to mounted thanks to Nyxkin (horse archer replacement but doesn't require horse resource, nice early on). Playing with mounted instead of recon actually lets you take advantage of the pillage bonus in Raiders. They also combine well because recon is fast and can get Mobility II. Mounted can strike out from a stack protected by e.g. Rangers.

Kyroshill · Feb 1, 2009

PekkaR said:
Just adding:
- no diplomacy penalties with other religions for following CoE
- visibility to all cities where CoE spreads (May require holy city but not the shrine? Surprisingly good for discovering completely new civs when most of the map is unexplored due to circumstances.)

Does not require the shrine... the Nox Noctis does much more than just bring in commerce.... it requires a tactical change within your own borders.... so many times it won't get built... or built later than any other shrine....

And I LOVE seeing other cities... especially enemy cities :scan:

EDIT/ADDITION:

Oh yeah.... Undercouncil..... UC has some pretty useful resolutions.... e.g. slave trade, smuggling rings and in my last game I was on the council by myself... and was ACTUALLY able to propose and take advantage of these effects..... don't think THAT's supposed to happen LOL

Luckmann · Feb 2, 2009

Kyroshill said:
Does not require the shrine... the Nox Noctis does much more than just bring in commerce.... it requires a tactical change within your own borders.... so many times it won't get built... or built later than any other shrine.
[...]

Wow, I'm almost starting to think that the Nox Noctis is a fair bit overpowered and that some of these abilities should be transferred to the Council of Esus religion, if at all possible.

There seems to be so many good Council of Esus 'exclusives' that aren't exclusive at all.

Zechnophobe · Feb 2, 2009

PekkaR said:
Shadowriders aren't necessarily out of your way tech-wise. Svartalfar have a secondary tech line through archers to mounted thanks to Nyxkin (horse archer replacement but doesn't require horse resource, nice early on). Playing with mounted instead of recon actually lets you take advantage of the pillage bonus in Raiders. They also combine well because recon is fast and can get Mobility II. Mounted can strike out from a stack protected by e.g. Rangers.

Alazkan and his merry band of assassins is by far the stronger military.He kills, his illusion weakens, your other assassin's kill.. rinse/repeat. Shadow riders are at the far end of the mounted line, whereas assassin's are right in the middle of the recon line, two techs from Fellowship of the Leaves.

And really, Nyxkin are just Horse archers in 90% of the games you will play, because you will also have access to horses.

Also, saying CoE doesn't have a diplomacy penalty is just nothin'. You could not adopt a religion, and say the same thing. And while you don't get penalties, you also don't get bonus'. FoL is an early religion that tends to spread nice and fast, so I don't think CoE wins out there either.

Demus · Feb 2, 2009

just found and adopt FoL, found the CoE but don't adopt. You only need 1 city with CoE for the shrine + HN shadows (you can spread to other cities obviously, but it isn't required). Possibly go empyrean as well, for the rediculous chalid + alazkan combination.

Luckmann · Feb 2, 2009

Edit: On a somewhat random note, about Yvain - everywhere I go, he's referred to as "Yvain the Wood Elf"; except in the game itself. What's going on with that? In my game, Yvain is a big, fat, Warcraftesque treant!

Demus said:
just found and adopt FoL, found the CoE but don't adopt. You only need 1 city with CoE for the shrine + HN shadows (you can spread to other cities obviously, but it isn't required). Possibly go empyrean as well, for the rediculous chalid + alazkan combination.

After finding out that Council of Esus religion gives Hidden Nationality to recon units without being State :religion:

, you can be damn sure I'm going to have it spread everywhere.

Goes pretty well with the lore, anyway, since the Fellowship of Leaves is supposedly pretty diverse bunch, regardless. I'll stock up any conflict with the Ljosalfar to religious war. I mean, of course Esus is a God of Nature too! He told me so! Surely he wouldn't lie!?

Demus · Feb 2, 2009

about yvain: he used to be a wood-elf druid, but was redesigned as a treeant a one or two versions back

PekkaR · Feb 2, 2009

Zechnophobe said:
Alazkan and his merry band of assassins is by far the stronger military.He kills, his illusion weakens, your other assassin's kill.. rinse/repeat. Shadow riders are at the far end of the mounted line, whereas assassin's are right in the middle of the recon line, two techs from Fellowship of the Leaves.

And really, Nyxkin are just Horse archers in 90% of the games you will play, because you will also have access to horses.

Also, saying CoE doesn't have a diplomacy penalty is just nothin'. You could not adopt a religion, and say the same thing. And while you don't get penalties, you also don't get bonus'. FoL is an early religion that tends to spread nice and fast, so I don't think CoE wins out there either.

It's an alternative when you want to avoid massed assassins. Or one could get the pillaging mounted units after assassins. Teching them instead of the disciple line which you might want with other religions. In this example I assume the player has decided to get Deception in any case for Undercouncil and at least non-state CoE.

My experience with the availability of horse resource is very different, probably related to favorite game setup. And often I've had no reason to tech Animal Husbandry yet by the earliest time I could optimally decide I want Archers-->Horse Archers, thus can't see the resource. Knowing for sure I can get Horse Archers if Horsemen don't work out does help.

I haven't done Nyxkin as Svartalfar by the way, but there are several other civs with Horse Archer replacements that require no resource or a different one. By that time one has to get out there and conquer the resource if planning to go further along mounted, of course.

hegemonkhan · Feb 3, 2009

i haven't read all the posts, so bare with me if i'm repeating what some one already said:

i think it is basically down to this decision:

FOL is "ultimately" the "better" religion. AF tiles, GON civic, druids, treants, and etc (whatever else i'm missing). basically gives u a powerful empire and good military and spells too.

VS

COE is purely for a "sneaky" diplomacy (undercouncil civic) and military ability (HN units) and force-units (HN units and possible shadow mana-spells).

which suits u better for your situation or your preference ?

Svartalfar - Council of Esus or Fellowship of Leaves?

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