Ministers plan to sell your ID card details to raise cash

from http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=649780

Personal details of all 44 million adults living in Britain could be sold to private companies as part of government attempts to arrest spiralling costs for the new national identity card scheme, set to get the go-ahead this week.

The Independent on Sunday can today reveal that ministers have opened talks with private firms to pass on personal details of UK citizens for an initial cost of £750 each.

Amid warnings today that the cost of a card for each adult in Britain is likely to double to £200, union leaders predicted that millions of public-sector workers could refuse to co-operate with the scheme, prompting claims that the ID scheme will become Labour's equivalent of the poll tax.

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I hope it does become Labour's Poll Tax, and not because of the personal cost. Whilst it has outrageous that loyal British subjects should have to personally fork out £200 for the privilege of being spied upon, what really annoys me is the Big Brother State. I am considered innocent until found guilty of a crime in a trial by my peers. No spying on me, thank you very much.

Unison is the latest and biggest trade union to come out against the controversial government plans. The Transport and General Workers' Union and the GMB have already urged backbenchers to vote against the Identity Cards Bill next week. Unison said that ID cards would be ineffective against terrorism and that its 1.3 million members working in healthcare may have the right to refuse to co-operate in enforcing their use.

Bob Marshall-Andrews, one of the Labour MPs opposing the Bill, has accused the Government of doing a "back of an envelope" calculation to reach its figure.

The opening of commercial talks contradicts a promise made when the Home Office launched a public consultation on ID cards in April last year, when officials pledged that "unlike electoral registers, the National Identity Register will not be open for any general access or inspection."

Public support for the scheme has been falling away in recent months amid gathering fears over costs. A report by the London School of Economics is to show that the card's cost to individuals will be around £200.

In addition, firms could be charged up to £750 for technology that would allow them instantly to verify customers' identity through iris scanning or finger-printing, according to official documents.

Whitehall insiders, who have already been passed a copy of the LSE report, say it also includes a warning by a former Nato security chief that the cards could be a "security disaster", are "too risky" to introduce, and could lead to a national meltdown in the event of a security breach of the central database.

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That last part is very interesting: that a system apparently there to enhance national security could be its biggest threat.

After 2008, a machine similar to credit card readers will be a common sight on the counters of banks and large retail stores. These new machines will potentially be able to read a customer's biometric details, such as fingerprints and facial measurements, to check that they tally with information on the customer's ID card.

The Identity Cards Bill has a rough passage ahead, with Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and some Labour rebels joining forces against it. Although government whips are confident of winning Tuesday's vote, rebels are predicting that they can kill the measure off later in the process, in a slow war of attrition, on the grounds of the costs involved and the risks of computer failure.

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The very notion of ID cards is abhorrent. It would be abhorrent with a government I trusted: but with this lot I will simply refuse to have one. Additonally, the very idea of letting private businesses get their grubby mits on it is just ludicrous. Not only that, but ministers are planning to sell my private details: I don't think that they are theirs' to sell.

Interestingly, the two prime reasons given for having ID cards do not stand up to scrutiny. First of all: Terrorism. Think about it: who are the people most likely to be terrorists? Answer: foreigners. However, none of the foreigners who visit Britain each year will be required to have one. Therefore, ID cards will not stop terrorism. Secondly: benefit fraud. The idea is that you won't be able to get a job without this ID card, and that will stop people having a job and claiming benefits at the same time. However, legally, you already can't get a job without your National Insurance card. But companies still hire people without them and pay cash in hand. A different kind of card will not alter that.

An expensive waste.

Not worried since I am in the United States .

CivGeneral said:

Not worried since I am in the United States .

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It's even worse in the US. We're gonna have to have national ID cards. Furthermore, in the US they are starting to keep tabs on us. They even hired a private contractor to do it, as opposed to doing it themselves, so who knows really where the information will go? At least in Britain the government will have to keep records of their transactions. In the US corporations do too but woh's ever gonna prove that they sold data which doesn't physically exist.

What's all the fuss about the NationalID? ALl it does is combine all the different cards you already carry around know and adds a fingerprint and citizenship line to it. Unles its been revised since I read that.

Sims2789 said:

It's even worse in the US. We're gonna have to have national ID cards. Furthermore, in the US they are starting to keep tabs on us. They even hired a private contractor to do it, as opposed to doing it themselves, so who knows really where the information will go?

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I dont see anything wrong with a National ID card. I beleve that the NIDC would lift the burden of carring around other forms of IDs such as birth certificates, passports, SS card, and other ID sources.

Romanfe said:

What's all the fuss about the NationalID? ALl it does is combine all the different cards you already carry around know and adds a fingerprint and citizenship line to it. Unles its been revised since I read that.

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- Will these cards be required on the person at all times?
- Required to be presented at any official demand?
- Will they have electronic transmission/tracking?
- Will the bearer be tracked from bedroom to shopping mall, from cradle to grave?

I think the key issue in this sort of thing is the 'slippery slope' - and Labour is already half-way to hell already.

No legitimate, representative, and democratic government needs such tracking of the citizen - the only use for these is toward greater control of the citizen.

10Seven said:

- Will these cards be required on the person at all times?
- Required to be presented at any official demand?
- Will they have electronic transmission/tracking?
- Will the bearer be tracked from bedroom to shopping mall, from cradle to grave?

I think the key issue in this sort of thing is the 'slippery slope' - and Labour is already half-way to hell already.

No legitimate, representative, and democratic government needs such tracking of the citizen - the only use for these is toward greater control of the citizen.

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Are Drivers licenses required on a person at all times when driving?
Are driver licenses required to be presented at any official demand

The second two are pure speculation and are irrelevent unless you have heard differently from the US government. Ever considered tracking might be good because it both certifies the authenticity of the ID and prevents it from being stolen?

Slippery-slope arguements are baseless accusations from someone with no real argument to begin with.

Better toss aside those passports guys, forum superstar 10seven believes in a free roam society!

National ID cards, OK. Paying 200$ for one, no thankee.

Its a ridiculous waste of money, and it probably takes about 3 months to actually process and receive the ID. But is it some sinister plot for "OMG BIG BROTHAR BRAV NU WERLD" doubtful.

Romanfe said:

But is it some sinister plot for "OMG BIG BROTHAR BRAV NU WERLD" doubtful.

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LOL, thats a keeper.

In Brazil people over 18 are forced to carry one with them at all times.

I think that is outrageous, and I salute the anglo-saxon peoples who refuse to allow a monstrusity such as as ID card. It annoys me to an endless extent that those bastards from Brasília force me to carry a document. Who the hell do they think they are? It's a pure act of tyranny.

Don't accept this, brits.

Edit: Far from me believing in "Brave New World" conspiracy theories. I just hate the fact that governments can force people to carry stuff. That is so ridiculously authoritarian.

luiz said:

Edit: Far from me believing in "Brave New World" conspiracy theories. I just hate the fact that governments can force people to carry stuff. That is so ridiculously authoritarian.

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Well sure, you can argue that its contrary to personal rights that the government require you to do anything, including voting. But once you have consented to identification like Drivers licenses and the like, the entire argument breaks down. Not to mention the whole "citizenship means consent to government" issue I see coming up sometimes.
Unless someone wants to stand up and say "hell no, I won't carry a driver license, dont tread on me pig" theres not a whole lot that differentiates one plastic card from the next on a symbolic level.

Romanfe said:

Are Drivers licenses required on a person at all times when driving?
Are driver licenses required to be presented at any official demand

The second two are pure speculation and are irrelevent unless you have heard differently from the US government. Ever considered tracking might be good because it both certifies the authenticity of the ID and prevents it from being stolen?

Slippery-slope arguements are baseless accusations from someone with no real argument to begin with.

Better toss aside those passports guys, forum superstar 10seven believes in a free roam society!

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I guess you're right What was I thinking? Your insults and thoughtless dismissal have completely changed my opinion.

Alternatively, I might suggest you educate yourself - particularly as to your dismissal of tracking, as this is, quite apart from being absurd, a subject of much formal and record discussion in a number of nations.

The tiniest part effort would recover government records on the subject for the USA, UK, Germany, France, Australia, New Zealand - I presume others, but from these the only I have had read.

Furthermore, the absurd and paranoid 'slippery slope theory' can well be considered an historical and biological tendency.

May I also encourage further education and thought in that area No, we should, instead prefer to insult and out of hand dismissal of ideas we do not like.

Please, show me the proof that the ID is anything but a plastic card to make identification easier. Please.

For someone on his high horse about not dismissing arguments, your tone is certainly dismissive, I wonder if you are a hypocrite much like I assume you think George Bush is.

Romanfe said:

Please, show me the proof that the ID is anything but a plastic card to make identification easier. Please.

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Im in this camp. Wheres the harm in identifying yourself? I mean, unless you plan on commiting a crime...

OrpheusPrime said:

Im in this camp. Wheres the harm in identifying yourself? I mean, unless you plan on commiting a crime...

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I think a major point the balance between subject and freedom - where, in many places, at least overtly, government is in service of the people.

Increasingly, at points it can well be seen that the reverse is more true.

Surely, I think some control is well needed, I don't advocate anything like anarchy - principally because I would suggest that 'complete freedom' is something of an oxymoron.

At first thought, and in most cases, I would say there is no harm at all in identifying ourselves when our intention is good/right/honest.

However, the issue comes when another's intention is non of those things.

Does an ID card equal BIGBROTHEROMGMINDSLAVE?

Not automatically, no way.

But it can be.

I think this comes down to a citizen's duty more than that guff about soldiers, to be vigilant - to be aware of the activities of their government for inappropriate action.

It's not about paranoia. It's about responsibility, prudence, and simple understanding of one's fellow human - that is, some seeds is rotten, even if most are goodsome

Yes well, i think national Identifications are just a side effect of globalization. I see no harm in being able to be identified and fail to see its immidiate implications of enslavement.

Moderator Action: The tone of this discussion needs to change. Thanks. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Romanfe said:

Are Drivers licenses required on a person at all times when driving?
Are driver licenses required to be presented at any official demand

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ID cards are required at all times whilst living. That's a completely different thing to a driving license. If you want to draw the comparison, an I.D. card is a living license.

Until your comment, I had never thought of it like that

Better toss aside those passports guys, forum superstar 10seven believes in a free roam society!

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I don't need a passport to go to the shops, whereas I will need an I.D. card to do so in the future.

Even if you are correct to say that we already have equivalent forms of I.D., what's the point in carrying more I.D.? It's completely redundant, a waste of money, a waste of time, and an unnecessary assault on personal liberties.

Damn, I was gonna post about this!

I am really opposed to ID cards, I think they are overly authoritarian, and if the government go as far as to sell our details....well lets just say I won't be happy