How do you improve the deficit when switching between despotism and monarchy/republic

Basically it is the most frustrating part of the game, everytime when I switch to Monarchy or Republic, I always suffer a certain size of deficit, this deficit always force me to turn down the science funding, and if worse, may even need to dispand some units. I have most of my cities filled with roads already, but if my military are too low, then I couldnt defend against my aggressive neighbours. Also, the deficit slow down my science growth, and if get worse, I might even have to sell some of my improvements (and marketplace doesnt come to help after 14 or more turns, the bonus from marketplace are just slowing the deficit down, but not eliminating it till most of my cities has got it which is quite hard with all the corruptions going on, it is even worse if you cant get your forbidden palace up early without a leader).
Do everyone/anyone face the same issues as me? What are your solution? Do you only swap government when lots of your cities have already grow through size 6?

If you have been a very cruel despot and pop-rushing settlers and stuff, you will have a big problem with the switch. Even if you haven't been that cruel, but aggressive settler construction has limited populations to 2/3 size, you are obviously going to have trouble funding your units and improvements.

IMHO the inner ring of cities do need to be about size 6. If you have been cruel, you can only achieve this with luxury spending pushed up and allowing time to heal wounds. For this reason, I think it quite problematic to rush for any reason other than (1) war and (2) building temples.

When switching to republic, you are making a clear decision to avoid war. Depending on the level you play at, you may want to reduce your garrisons to one unit, especially in the inner cities, by disbanding them. It makes sense to move poor upgrade line units to outer cities, where waste is higher, and disband them, saving you 1 gpt.

You may also be able to sell some improvements. You probably only need one barracks, if that. In the short term, you may not need temples in all your cities, particularly those that you are using to build settlers and you built a temple simply to increase the city radius. (By now you have probably hooked up some luxury resources so the need for temples is reduced.) Equally if some of your cities have reached size 6 and need an A-duct to grow, you might want to think about selling those particular granaries.

It is worth remembering too that despotism is not that bad a situation to be in. If you are still in expansion phase, you may well find that expansion is faster by pop rushing wheat / flood plain rich but waste high cities on your periphery in despotism than by using a central settler factory, which (1) requires the settler to go a long way to found a new city and (2) could be building improvements. You therefore do not need to leave despotism early

Veteranewbie,

I never have this problem! Since I follow the dairy farming style (expand first, conquest later), except for a lot of workers, I do not have to pay much upkeep for anything else. Therefore, I'm always at least double my income every time I switch to Republic from Depostism. Basically, I will try to switch to Republic ASAP and skip Monarchy all together.

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Basically, I will try to switch to Republic ASAP and skip Monarchy all together.

Click to expand...

Me too! I always skip monarchy and have never experienced a significant deficit when making the switch.

Vetnewb...My guess is that at the time you're making the switch, you've either

a) over-built your military to the point where it costs more than you can afford at the time you make the switch

AND/OR

b) you don't have enough well-developed cities or aren't sufficiently populated to the point where you can operate "in the black".

You might experience an early deficit immediately after switching, but if your cities are growing rapidly population-wise, you'll move into the plus side in a very short amount of time. The only way to avoid a deficit is to have population working your squares and adding gold to your treasury. And you can't have the gold if you don't have the "people" working the squares!

I also have a problem with the aforementioned statement that once you go Republic, you've committed yourself to avoid war!

Not true! Many players whether they're full-scale warmongers, developers or somewhere in between have found the Republic to be a happy medium between Democracy (where WW is a major issue) and Monarchy/Despotism (which limits your growth both financially and happiness wise!

With adequate luxuries, you can use the slider and proceed through a warmonger period (albeit not iand indefinite period) with very little disruption to the overall happiness of the population at large.

Well. There are two factors involved here:

1. Support costs. Under despotism, every single city pays for 4 units on the board. Under monarchy, it's 2 for towns (1-6), 4 for cities (7-12), and 6 for metropolises (13+). I don't remember the exact numbers for republic (2 per city no matter what size?). I think democracy is zero support per city.

2. Commerce improvements. Gads! I'd need to go read the civilopedia again (at work atm). IIRC, both republic and democracy give noticable increases to commerce. I don't remember if it's calculated per city or applied after the fact to your entire civ. I don't remember what commerce adds monarchy gives. I don't think they get one directly.

So if you're going from despotism to monarchy, you are pretty much always going to take a cash hit. Unless you are getting monarchy very late in the game for some reason, odds are you've got lots of cities that are still size 6 or lower (most of them in fact). It's not that you make less money, but that you now have to pay more for your army.

The benefits of monarchy is that the -1 food production limit under despotism is lifted. Also, you get an extra military garrison (can use 3 instead of 2). Your workers are also more productive, allowing you to build roads and improvements faster. You don't go to monarchy to make more money. You go to monarchy to allow your cities to grow faster and to build up your empire a bit faster. The asumption is that you've expanded and now need to consolidate. Even though you're not making as much money as before, you gain more benefit from having larger cities under monarchy, so the overall commerce effect will be positive. Basically, if you aren't already expanded about to where you want to be, and you don't have at least half your cities at 6 or higher size, you should probably stay in despotism for a bit longer.


Republic is a bit trickier. You get a commerce boost, but unless you've got a lot of cities, you're going to pay a lot for your military. Ok. You're going to pay a lot anyway, but the point of a republic is that you don't need a huge army. Like all things in Civ, it's a tradeoff. You can either have a large army, or build faster. The trick is figuring out the right time to switch from one government form to another. If you are at peace, and have good relations with your neighbors, and have a good sized civilization, republic is probably a good idea. You get even more worker productivity and greater growth potential then in monarchy. You can't field nearly the size of military under republic as under monarchy though.

The biggest problem is that I always have agressvie neighbour (thanks to random opponent I always have aztec/Inca/American by my side). The deficit after switching government is not a major problem itself since eventually I know it will improve, but the biggest problem is that most of the time I have to drag the science rate to 40% and sometimes even as low as 20% just to prevent the deficit from totally reducing my treasury to 0. With me already 1 tech behind of most AI, I could barely afford any tech the AI can offer, since I have no gold or tech to trade for, and the AI wont accept luxury for tech.

My normal policy is to switch to republic as soon as I have learnt it, but in my case this is usually learnt by 40 turn gambit with 10% science or 1 scientist, after all required ancient era techs are learnt,ie after currency etc, so usually have marketplaces in major cities on rivers first (usually have not built aquaducts yet) and I get a big jump in gold per turn earnings. The amount of science needed to learn republic is large and therefore better done slowly while you are banking money with a high tax rate or purchasing other techs from ai. If you have money in the bank, you can up the science rate substantially after republic is learnt even if this gives you negative earnings for a while

Veteran,

at which level and on which size of the map are you playing?
Your description reminds me of my first attempts, when I just stopped my expansion too soon.
What I do is, I expand rather quick, but not at all costs. I explore and check for the best locations and those are settled at first hand.
Next to this, I almost never have turns with a deficit spending. By acting that way, I sum my money turn per turn. Since there is hardly any chance to spend it while being under despotic regime, I normally have a treasury between 200 and 1000 gold, when I switch (and most times I just pass monarchy - I just go directly for republic).
Another thing: try to sell your techs to the AI. Even if you get "just" 20 gold for it... what the heck? They would get it sooner or later anyway, if not from you then from the other nations (of course, I wouldn't sell Literature while just having started the GL ...). But, to stay with the example of the GL, as soon as you are half way through and the other nations you know about are not currently building wonders, then it should be rather safe to sell Literature....
Furthermore, I am eagerly hunting down barbarian villages. They give you 25 gold per capture - not that bad in the beginning (and you improve your military by this).

I've found that by putting the Lux slider to at least 20% after the change helps a lot. Science and revenue may slow for a bit, but this tip puts more citizens on the tiles.

I think the decision is quiet simple.

In Despotism, every city supports the maximum of 4 units (4 gpt).

In Republic, you gain a extra gold per working tile.

So, if you have a lot of units, just go to Republic if your cities are bigger than 4-size. (You must have some luxury resources too.) It's a trade off.

The problem is NOT the number of cities but the size of then.

I pop rush buildings in my capitol for culture but not other reasons. Other cities might get a temple pop rushed but that is about it. So unhappiness is not so bad.

After completing your expansion, I try to build a market or two before changing to rep and if I go to monarchy, use those mp's.

The most important thing you can do before changing govt is to get roads where you will work tiles. You need to look at what tiles your workers are improving and make sure your cities are working them OR move your workers and make sure the govenor is working those tiles OR manually assign tiles and move workers.

I think your problem is not working tiles that yield trade.

Monarchy is my favorite government (even though I don't use it all the time) so I'm pretty familiar with the switch.

First realize that Despotism is not the plague. There's better governments but its a great "starter" government so don't be in a rush to get out of it too soon. The main advantage is that each city pays for 4 units (including workers.) In a Monarchy any city size 6 or less will only support 2 units. Once you get above size 6 then those cities will support 4 units. 8 units above size 12. This is probably the most significant cause of your deficit when switching to Monarchy. You build units in Despotism and can afford them, but unless your cities are ready you might be crushed by the upkeep in Monarchy. Don't be tricked just because you might have a small military, workers count too so even peaceful types can have problems. Wait for Aqueducts before you make the switch. Make sure you have a lot of 7+ cities to keep the transition smooth.

Another trick is to disperse your units evenly. Monarchy allows 3 military police over Despotism's 2. That means you can possibly put more citizens to work on tiles in Monarchy and lower your lux slider. Try to put 3 units in all your cities, or at least the larger ones.

Finally in regard to Marketplaces you have to remember that they only enhance your treasury income, not your overall income. What I mean is if you have 80% science and 10% luxury those Markets are only going to enhance the 10% remaining that goes into the treasury. If you do 100% science then the Markets will not help your income at all. If you are building Libraries and Universities you can probably afford to let up on the science % a bit so your Markets can do you some good.

Hope that helps.

Veterannewbie,

another thing, about which I forgot in my previous posting:
Have a look to your status screen. As soon as your are in reach of a new tech (meaning there is just 1 or 2 turns to go) in most cases could can significantly decrease the science ratio, thus making much more money during those turns.
Of course, you shouldn't forget about to readjust it for the new tech to go for....