Favourite Civs for an expansion - proper poll using Alexanders research

Hi! This is the poll that had to come, I hope it will soak up most discussions which civs should or shouldn't be in the game.
I tried hard to give it a scientific touch, but it's a hard task limiting myself to 25 choices (the technical maximum for polls). This also means, I can't give you the choice which native american tribe/nation represents them best, only if any of them should be in Civ.

Here are the definitivey confirmed (and likely) civs:

Europe:
Britain
France
Germany
Greece
Rome
Russia

Orient:
Arabia
Egypt
Ottomans

Asia:
China
India
Japan

Americas:
USA
Aztecs

Sub-Saharanean Afrika:
Songhai

I split them up in cultural circles to give you an idea where a civ could be missing. Australia/Oceania is not in Civ5 yet (and has never been in Civ!)

Likely candidates for the basic game released this fall:

Persia
Spain
Siam and Inca (they have also been mentioned in some way, but I'm not very sure about them, just my opinion)

And here is a link to Alexanders list which Civs have been in the games so far:
(I hope you are fine with me linking it here!)

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showpost.php?p=93558&postcount=67

One last word: please don't take it personally if your favourite civ is not here, I tried as hard as I can to give 25 good and likely choices, most of them WERE in some version of civ, those added are not only my idea, but also from the suggestions in Alexanders thread.

Happy voting! MULTIPLE CHOICES POSSIBLE !!!

I have a bad feeling that this thread will go down in flames (pun intended)...

That being said, however, if everyone can stay civil and open-minded, this could be a good thread. I'll step out and throw out some names.*

I'd like to see the Dutch in an expansion. They were very powerful economically (lots of trading and control in the East) relative to the rest of Europe.

North American Indians should come back. I'm not going to go and suggest which tribe (if any should be specifically named).

As a Canadian I'd really love to see Canada in...but there are plenty more civs more deserving, I'm sure.

Of those four possible civs that aren't confirmed, the ones that don't make the cut for the original MUST be in the first expansion.


*Disclaimer: I am no history expert on any of these. If I make a serious error (i.e. The Mongols should be in, they built the Great Wall! [/exaggeration]) just let me know.

Puh, that was a lot of work!!! I'm sorry some good choices are missing (Polynesia/Maori for example) but I had the technical limit of the boards...

I still hope not too many will choose "missing option" because I would have made a mistake in my poll then...

....sighs,,,,,,I always vote for my homeland and the homelands of allies,,,


so with that said

Hungary
Poland
Czech nation of somekind

I would like to see Austria, Spain, Ethiopia and Vikings added, sadly I overlooked the multiple votes info at the end and voted only for Austria.

If Spain is not in vanilla, it must be made available as soon as possible with an add-on, for the following reasons:

#1 Since Civ 2, all versions of the series have included Spain (either in vanilla or at least in an expansion pack). There is no reason why Civ 5 should break with that tradition.

#2 The Earth map and most historical scenarios (from the Middle Ages to the present day) require Spain to be playable. Many players (including the influential modder Rhye) would not play Civ5 on the Earth map without Spain. Spain-less Earth maps are incomplete.

#3 The exploration and colonization stages are crucial parts of the game (even more so in archipelago and terra maps). Spain played a crucial role throughout those eras. Therefore, Spain is crucial to the civilization series.

#4 Following the end of the Reconquista and beginning of the Age of Discovery, Spain became a leading world power for almost two centuries, enjoying a golden age of art, literature, and scientific advancement. All the major modern-history-based games (from the Total War Series to the Age of Empire series) feature Spain as a major playable nation. There is no reason why Civilization 5 should be an exception that rule.

LOL... it took only 5 posts to get the first nationalists in... well.. I guess it was inevitable.

Anyway... I was under the impression that Vikings were going to be into vanilla... isn't this the case?
For the first exp I would like to see Persia (assuming is not already in vanilla), which in the middle east had a bigger role and importance than Spain in Europe.
My second choice is Inca, then Korea, Spain and Portugal.

I'm not too interested in the poll itself, but I was debating with someone the other day who claimed Orient meant far east Asia to everyone. He thought Orient was a better term than Asian because it's more specific. I told him that wasn't true; Orient means different things in different cultures, and some people in Europe thought of the Orient as someone in the middle east. He refused to believe it, but here we have a poll from someone from Austria mentioning middle east civs as "Orient." So thanks for proving my point!

I would love the Vikings to be in vanilla, but they've always been an expansion-pack civ. I hope they bring back some central-european civ like the HRE or Austria-Hungry, even though it would be unnecessary to. Some are definately going to be in Civ 5 at some time, like the Babylonians or Carthage, and some I hope they wouldn't include like the Mughal or another Indian civ (the Indian empire in civ pretty much represents the entire subcontinent, not just modern India).

I wonder why Hittities,Sumer and Assyria got lumped together in one vote-spot while Babylon got one for itself?

Newcomer24 said:

LOL... it took only 5 posts to get the first nationalists in... well.. I guess it was inevitable.
Anyway... I was under the impression that Vikings were going to be into vanilla... isn't this the case?
For the first exp I would like to see Persia (assuming is not already in vanilla), which in the middle east had a bigger role and importance than Spain in Europe.
My second choice is Inca, then Korea, Spain and Portugal.

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#1 It makes little sense to compare the role and importance of Persia in Ancient Middle East with that of Spain in Modern Europe. We are talking about completely different historical eras and geographical areas. Clearly, both Persia and Spain have enormous historical importance, which they acquired and manifested in completely different ways. They both are essential civs, and the game would be incomplete without them.

#2 Please stop calling "nationalist" the people you disagree with. As shown above (post #6) as well as in other threads, the arguments for Spain's inclusion in Civ5 (be it vanilla or an expansion pack) have nothing to do you mine, yours, or anyone's else nationality. (And by the way, I am not even a Spaniard). Experience from previous threads show that irrelevant remarks about "nationalism" hamper the advancement of fruitless and constructive discussion.

If Spain is not in vanilla, it must be made available as soon as possible with an add-on

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Experience from previous threads show that irrelevant remarks about "nationalism" hamper the advancement of fruitless and constructive discussion.

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Experience from other threads shows that making demands that X "must" be done hampers the advancement of fruitful and constructive discussion.

You would get peoples backs up a lot less if you argued that X "should" be done, or that you would prefer X, rather than "must".

"Must" in English has the character of an ultimatium, and nobody responds well to ultimatiums.

You can also observe from this poll and others that the vast majority of players agree that Spain is a priority choice for expansions, so your continued advocacy is somewhat superfluous.

I voted Khmer, Siam, Majapahit (please don't call it Indonesians) and Polynesians (other).

I did NOT vote for Spain.

Ahriman said:

You can also observe from this poll and others that the vast majority of players agree that Spain is a priority choice for expansions

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Indeed, and there could be doubt about that. The vast majority of reasonable civfans agree that Spain is a priority civ. That is one of the reasons why Spain must be made available as soon as possible, if not in vanilla, then with an add on or an expansion. I prefer to say "must" instead of "should be" because, as I have already explained, there are very strong arguments showing that Spain is as a high priority feature. For example, Spain is crucial to Earth maps and many historical based scenarios.

Giordano Léonce;9030718 said:

#2 Please stop calling "nationalist" the people you disagree with. As shown above (post #6) as well as in other threads, the arguments for Spain's inclusion in Civ5 (be it vanilla or an expansion pack) have nothing to do you mine, yours, or anyone's else nationality.

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I do not disagree with you... I agree that Spain is an important country and it should make into the first expansion, I was surprised to not see it in the first 18... but hey 18 aren't many and Firaxis had to make some hard decisions, it's understandable.

But you keep demanding Spain as if Civ wouldn't be playable without it... as if it was vital to the whole game... and this is clearly not the case.
"It must be made available as soon as possible with an add-on" ... is this an ultimatum?

Not only that... you keep advertising Spain telling how much cool it is compared to other countries... sort of nationalist propaganda... that's why I called you a nationalist.

Anyway... let's try to keep the thread on topic, discussion over.

Giordano Léonce;9030822 said:

I prefer to say "must" instead of "should be"

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This is the problem. Please don't use "must" as you come across as making ultimatums, which is highly insulting to numerous people on this board.

EDIT: Also, please cite your evidence (polls, etc) supporting the below claim as I'm interested in that finding:

The vast majority of reasonable civfans agree that Spain is a priority civ.

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Giordano Léonce;9030822 said:

Indeed, and there could be doubt about that. The vast majority of reasonable civfans agree that Spain is a priority civ. That is one of the reasons why Spain must be made available as soon as possible, if not in vanilla, then with an add on or an expansion. I prefer to say "must" instead of "should be" because, as I have already explained, there are very strong arguments showing that Spain is as an high priority feature. For example, Spain is crucial to Earth maps and many historical based scenarios.

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Okay, I've seen this argument a few times now, that Spain is crucial to Earth maps. Can someone explain to me why? If Spain isn't there, there are still several other major European civilizations to take that open land. I don't see how the exclusion of Spain is going to ruin the game. Compare that to Africa, where there's Egypt and the Songhai, and that's it. How is that going to make a fair game when Europe is already smothered with civilizations and the Songhai have all the room in the world to expand? I think Spain should be in, but I don't see how it's a "high priority feature" because of Earth maps. That's a very weak argument, in my opinion. If you're going to use Earth maps to justify the inclusion of a civ, I would think it'd be a civ from southern Africa (perhaps the Zulu).

Besides, probably less than 1% of all games are played on Earth maps, so I don't think that's really that strong of an argument anyway.

Dale said:

This is the problem. Please don't use "must" as you come across as making ultimatums, which is highly insulting to numerous people on this board.

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Spain is an high priority feature, and this is what the use of "must" is meant to convey. This is not an ultimatum, but a claim that is supported by very strong arguments. Such a constructive claim is hardly an "insult" to Firaxis or the members on this board. Please calm down, there is no need to be over-sensitive over this futile verbal issue.

Weather Spain must be in Civ 5 or not, there is little doubt that, eventually, Spain will be in Civ 5.

@ art Grin:

I made the multiple choice option as visible as possible!

@ Dale:

I added the word "Indonesions" for Majapahit because we can safely assume over 90% of the people on this board don't really know who they are. To stay honest, I didn't know them until you stated believably that they were a major faction in southeast-asia. I can swear they are not in our history books - not that this means a thing

@ Giordane Leonce:

Spain was and is important and it's a beatiful place with extremely nice inhabitants. But please don't get nervous about the topic, we all know what Spain has achieved and they have almost always been in vanilla civ. It's just a game, and if they aren't in there will surely be a great mod adding them within 2 weeks after release. They are on top of the wishlist, too.
Stating that you know the absolute truth and everybody "must" agree really ruins any discussion, as much as I agree to you.

@ Rowain:

Because Babylon is way better known, or I believe it is (at least in christian countries through the bible).

@ Bonafide

Yes, "orient" means "middle east" in German. It's the traditional medieval expression, when Europe sometimes was called "occident" and other parts of the world were hardly known. They are similar to "Abendland" (evening land, europe) and "Morgenland" (morning land, the middle east). In modern news reports, they use "Naher Osten" (Near East) frequently.

Spain is an high priority feature, and this is what the use of "must" is meant to convey.

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That may be what you *mean* it to convey, but that is not what it actually conveys to readers. I don't know if you are a native English speaker or not, but when communicating there is an obligation to consider how your statements will be interpreted by readers, not just how you intend them.

You can have the best point in the world, but you won't convince anyone of this if you demand that they agree with you, rather than trying to persuade.

How would you feel if people started writing "I demand that you stop using the word 'must' in your posts", as opposed to "I suggest that you will find people more sympathetic to your point if you should "should be" instead of "must".

EDIT: Also, please cite your evidence (polls, etc) supporting the below claim as I'm interested in that finding:

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Dale; we're in a thread with a poll, more people have voted for Spain than any other. Reading the Spain rant thread also made it clear that most posters in that thread thought Spain had an important history and should be a priority selection for inclusion in an expansion.