National College ASAP and Liberty - How?

Setup:
Arabia
Pangaea
Emperor
Huge
8 Civs
16 City States
Sea Level/World Age/Resources set to Random
Mods: Enhanced UI, nothing else

BO: Scout, Monument, Scout, Worker, Shrine/Granary, Settler, Archer/Buy archer, Library
Social policies: Liberty opener, Republic, Collective Rule, Citizenship
Military policy: Keep warrior close to guard worker/escort settler, scout aggressively and try not to spend too long healing, avoid barb camps with scouts
Settling policy: Max 2 turns moving with starting settler, Settle near new luxuries after capital founded, Mountain+river+hill but away from tundra/desert whenever possible

And by that point it's turn 50 or so and I've got my capital plus 2 cities and both cities seem to take forever to build a library and by turn 70 either I haven't even finished Philosophy or I have and one of the cities doesn't have a library yet, I'm in unhappiness and/or losing money and frequently I am beset on all sides by barbarians and it's all a disaster and I quit and I reload!

I won't stop reloading til I got my line down to perfection! Help!

I think what I really want is 3 cities out like 10 turns earlier.

go liberty and building only 3 cities is bad. Liberty designed for really wide empires, like 10 cities. Wide empires DO NOT build national wanders early. They might build some at turn 300 or soo, if there opportunity.

From what you've written, the following jumps out to me:-

1. You're building a worker. This is a waste of hammers. You can steal them from AI civs and/or city states with such a small diplomatic penalty that it is very quickly forgotten. If I DoW an AI civ before turn 15, I find that by turn 50 he offers me friendship, at least 75% of the time. Just make sure you don't DoW more than one AI civ and one city state. You can take multiple workers within the same DoW, but don't do more than two total.

2. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage by setting up an empty world. 8 civs usually inhabit a standard sized map, and even then some of the time you find yourself all alone. The thing is that the more AIs you meet, the faster you will discover technologies, because a technology that has already been discovered by at least one AI that you know, will be researched faster.

Something that really helped me step my game up was playing on the higher difficulty levels, even before I was really ready to do so, and practising opening strategies that are intended to be absolutely optimal.

I found this guide absolutely invaluable for improving my liberty domination play on Immortal and Deity.

I've managed to use it to get 4 cities AND an army by turn 55 every time.

If you want to play peaceful, you wouldn't be going liberty anyway, right?

You want to open Tradition and finish it as soon as possible. Settle your cities with at least 1 hill that doesn't have forest or jungle on. Your expos should be locked to this hill tile, yes they wont grow but growing an expo to pop 2 makes no sense when you are needing the library asap. When building settlers lock every hill tile as you cant starve when you build them. My recommended build order is scout->scout->worker(if you cant steal one)->granary(if not at pop 3 or 4->settler->settler->Library->NC. Expo build order is Library(lock hill tile)->granary(food focus)->cargo ship. Tech order is Writing->Mining->Animal Husbandry->Sailing->Philosophy.

I take it your goal is a super early NC, if so that means sacrificing religion until the NC is built and chopping forests. If the 20 hammers gotten from forest is multiplied by modifiers then you want to do this when building the NC, if not it doesn't matter. All forest should be chopped, including tiles that have features, resources, and luxuries. The only exception is flat land, if you have only 1 forest on flat land chop away, if you have many keep them for lumber mills.

phillipwyllie said:

You want to open Tradition and finish it as soon as possible. Settle your cities with at least 1 hill that doesn't have forest or jungle on. Your expos should be locked to this hill tile, yes they wont grow but growing an expo to pop 2 makes no sense when you are needing the library asap. When building settlers lock every hill tile as you cant starve when you build them. My recommended build order is scout->scout->granary->worker(if you cant steal one)->settler->settler->NC. Tech order is Writing->Mining->Animal Husbandry->Sailing->Philosophy.

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I really don't want to use Tradition!

With regard to building workers, the reason I have been doing it is because the city states have not been pushing them out before turn 30-35. I need a worker earlier!

One thing I found about playing 8 civs on a huge map is the barbarians are absolutely crazy, and it is harder to find civs.

Mutineer said:

go liberty and building only 3 cities is bad. Liberty designed for really wide empires, like 10 cities. Wide empires DO NOT build national wanders early. They might build some at turn 300 or soo, if there opportunity.

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The problem with building National College after building a lot of cities is you don't get the bonus to BPT and also it costs a lot more hammers for every city you build. So the general idea is to build 2-4 cities, build NC then settle more cities and/or invade other civs and take their cities!

revelation216 said:

The problem with building National College after building a lot of cities is you don't get the bonus to BPT and also it costs a lot more hammers for every city you build. So the general idea is to build 2-4 cities, build NC then settle more cities and/or invade other civs and take their cities!

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^
This. Stop every now and then to build a national wonder. 3 city NC for Liberty and you can still get it early. 4 cities and you can still get it before turn 90 I am certain. You need to rush buy the last library. I always get 4 or so National wonders, even going wide.

Steal workers. In Fact, you should probably be farming a CS or AI for workers / XP.

Liberty pays off wonderfully once you have 5+ cities. Personally I like having 6 cities early on (at least one capitol in there) and the others later as spoils of war. You dont need to found every city. Let the AI start a few and take them by force or peace deals.

I have a 20 city game recently and was still swimming in at the end (thanks to ideology / captured wonders / courthouses).

Damascus is in a bad location. Don't hope something of that city. On tile south and you'd be able to work weath (one more hammer). North in next to mountain would be better, and far better with your desert folklore.
I see only one lux, copper, and it is not in your border. So unhappiness is not a surprise.
T70, you can't have Philo because you're researching Maths !
Huge, Emperor, don't be suprise to have many barbarians in your borders.
With Liberty it's hard to sustain 3 monuments, 3 library, 2 melee units, 2 workers and 2 archers (for barbs) without some AI to buy your luxs or iron/horses. I screwed many games, because I start to fast for my gold income (mainly after Pyras). With Liberty, you have 1 hammer for production : faster settlers and other units/buildings. It's easy to go in the wall. Build an economy before buildings or units. If you can't, you need to slow down your progress.

revelation216 said:

I really don't want to use Tradition!...

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Tradition is the way to go if you are founding 4 or less cities, it's almost designed for an early NC. In my early wonder-whoring days I used to be a Liberty fan-boy but after watching a Deity LP video I was soon converted(no missionary or Great Prophet needed). I would give it a try for 115 turns and I bet you reach Education before you do if you hadn't opened(and completed) Tradition.

revelation216 said:

I really don't want to use Tradition!

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I share your distaste. Others rave about it, but I have much better results with liberty.

With regard to building workers, the reason I have been doing it is because the city states have not been pushing them out before turn 30-35. I need a worker earlier!

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On Immortal and Deity the AI will pump them out VERY early so you can steal from them, in the right spots.

One thing I found about playing 8 civs on a huge map is the barbarians are absolutely crazy, and it is harder to find civs.

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Yeah, so stop playing like that!

You're making it 30x harder for yourself. Play with the right amount of civs for the map size, so you can tech at the right speed, and the AI will help sweep up the barbarians.

1. Make 3 or 4 cities as early as happiness allow after getting Collective rule.
2. Make sure to have enough workers to improve luxuries and strategic ressource fast.
3. Make sure to make some archers to complete CS quest to help with later happiness
4. It's okay to stop an expansion at 1-2 pop so that it can make granary/library in time (by working hammer tiles)
5. Do not delay writing/philosophy too long, just take the truly necessary techs before
6. Try to gauge whether or not your last expansion will require a rushed library or not before philosophy and plan around that. Note that it's better to rush buy a granary and build a library if you have the time for only one of the two.
7. Try to make caravans as early as possible to help capital grow so that it has enough hammers during NC construction.

One other point-of-view here.
National College is only useful if its in a large city. It's NOT essential despite what others say here unless you're trying to go for a super-early Science Victory.

Liberty doesn't provide gold (unlike tradition) so trade routes are important and one of these will probably give you about as much science as an early NC anyways.
They key is to plant cities that ideally have an adjacent mountain so in the renaissance you can build observatories. Key wonders are Stone Henge, Colossus & Macchu Pichu. These will give you religion, trade routes & gold which will compensate for playing wide. If you're trying to rush libraries in your 2nd & 3rd cities I really think its a waste of hammers & the maintenance cost will really hurt.
My suggestion is plant your cities until you're reasonably confident you have enough, then build your libraries & NC. Mountain Cities will catch you up in science.

revelation216 said:

I really don't want to use Tradition!....

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I've just noticed your thread title, my bad. What I would try is a 1 city GL->NC with my build queue as scout->monument->shrine->granary->worker(prefer to steal or wait for the Citizenship one)->GL->NC->settler(Collective rule unlocked)->settler..... If you are on good dirt, and are at least pop 4 you should get the GL before turn 40.

I've just tried a 4 city liberty opening as Spain with Mt Sinai nearby. I did a 2 city GL->NC with my build order Monument->scout->granary->GL->work-boat->work-boat->NC completed by turn 55. Although I got to Education by turn 115 I suffered what you have described, chronic unhappiness and gold issues meaning I got beaten to Petra by 1 turn. Things are rosey now with 20 happiness and positive gpt but had I not been playing as Spain things would be very different.

Redaxe said:

Macchu Pichu.

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Funny you mention that wonder. Yesterday I did 2 city National College turn 81, completed Liberty and used Great Engineer on Macchu Pichu. It works great with the Arabs who already make a lot of gold. I think I was making about 65gpt by turn 100. I then take commerce which also boosts city connections by reducing road and rail maintenance.

As for the unhappiness I think it can be combated by doing CS quests a lot more. Friendly+ mercantile CSs give happiness, on top of the happiness from having their luxuries when allied.

phillipwyllie said:

I've just noticed your thread title, my bad. What I would try is a 1 city GL->NC with my build queue as scout->monument->shrine->granary->worker(prefer to steal or wait for the Citizenship one)->GL->NC->settler(Collective rule unlocked)->settler..... If you are on good dirt, and are at least pop 4 you should get the GL before turn 40.

I've just tried a 4 city liberty opening as Spain with Mt Sinai nearby. I did a 2 city GL->NC with my build order Monument->scout->granary->GL->work-boat->work-boat->NC completed by turn 55. Although I got to Education by turn 115 I suffered what you have described, chronic unhappiness and gold issues meaning I got beaten to Petra by 1 turn. Things are rosey now with 20 happiness and positive gpt but had I not been playing as Spain things would be very different.

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Actually thats another interesting strategy although I can't see Great Library rush working above Emperor, its probably risky at that level. But yes it does give the advantage of saving hammers & early gold in Libraries for multiple cities when arguably caravans, shrines, military, workers, granaries & colisseums are more important seeing as your Capital will have strong science.

Commerce is a must if you have lots of inland cities, Protectionism is possibly one of the best policies, just make sure the AIs don't ban your luxuries as a 6 happiness hit is brutal.
And then Landsknechts are fantastic with the following gold buying discount policy for quickly getting a decent army.

Redaxe said:

Actually thats another interesting strategy although I can't see Great Library rush working above Emperor....

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No it probably won't. I tried a 2 city GL rush opening Tradition and got well beaten to it. Liberty's free worker is how I got it the first time. I now remember why I was such a Liberty fan-boy but I miss the free monuments and free aqueducts too much.

Mutineer said:

go liberty and building only 3 cities is bad. Liberty designed for really wide empires, like 10 cities. Wide empires DO NOT build national wanders early. They might build some at turn 300 or soo, if there opportunity.

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not necessarily. 3 cities with liberty is a good aggressive opener if you want to attack a neighbor.

consider using GE from liberty finisher to rush NC.

I like to play wide on Immortal... I've been toying with different ways to start off, too... Some ideas that might help and/or add variety:
* Wait on workers. The cost money and take time to produce. Moreover, when your cities are only size 1, 2 and 3, they can often work the land without improvements pretty well.
* Settling on the coast near sea resources is a huge boost early as fishing boats don't have maintainance costs, bring in food and lots of money. Add a lighthouse and (perhaps?) God of the Sea (if you have lots of sea resources) and your production, population and money will grow very quickly.
* If you are playing on the map you described, you might want to consider adopting (but not really pursuing) Honor. The cultural bonuses you'll get from dealing with all those barbarians will make up for using an early slot there.
* I find that I don't need to race through Liberty to make it useful, so (especially if I don't get a cultural bonus from ruins), I'll often adopt Piety right away (to speed shrines along in my first two cities) and then pick the policy that gives each shrine a faith bonus. Then, if I have two/three cities with shrines, I am almost guaranteed a religion (immortal, huge map, 11 AI) and generally am happy with the choices - without putting forth any additional effort.
* Consider puting your second, third, etc. city right on a luxury resource - this gives you the benefits immediately (if you have the tech) and allows you to spread quickly.
* I generally (like you mentioned) build 3-5 cities quickly (depending on lots of things) and then stop expanding until I have the National College. This generally gives me time to strengthen all of my infastructure, boost my happiness, etc. so that I can madly expand again. I'll pause again at some point in the middle ages to build at least one more national wonder (National Monument)
* Internal trade routes are HUGE. By going Liberty, you are not getting some serious growth bonuses that your Tradition opponents enjoy, so you need to put some effort into growth. An early granary in your capital with two trade routes (after sailing) to to new cities will get your new cities growing very quickly. Then, when you get granaries in them, reverse the trade routes and pump up the population your capital.
* Your pantheon is important. Yes, I like Dessert Folklore. However, I think folks on this site love it a bit too much. If you have desert everywhere, by all means take it. However, Sacred Path is awesome if you are surrounded by jungle. Messenger of the Gods gives wide empires lots of science.... The Goddess of the Hunt and God of the Sun will be huge bonuses to your population if you have the right resources... If you have lots of fish, crab, etc. God of the Sea is fantastic, etc. Basically, almost the pantheons are great if your have the right land - there are a couple I found good playing on lower levels that became less useful on Immortal (Monument to the Gods comes to mind as building early wonders early in the game on Immortal/Diety and lots of AI is a very questionable strategy.

Redaxe said:

Actually thats another interesting strategy although I can't see Great Library rush working above Emperor, its probably risky at that level.

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I've been playing as Babylon on Immortal recently, so, for tech, I am going Pottery-Writing. Unless I discover an ancient ruin with writing, it seems that the Great Library is built by an AI shortly after I discover writing - before I'd have a prayer of finishing it. I don't even try. Sometimes, I'll try for Stonehenge really late (i.e. when it is long past when it should have been built and still available.) and I do like to try pick up the Pyramids and the Oracle. I have some successs with that - and have gotten two out of the three. But, still, I only try if my capital has strong growth and production, does not need more buildings and I feel my borders are secure (on my own Island, have only one or two very peaceful neighbors, etc.).

Don Matt said:

I've been playing as Babylon on Immortal recently, so, for tech, I am going Pottery-Writing. Unless I discover an ancient ruin with writing, it seems that the Great Library is built by an AI shortly after I discover writing - before I'd have a prayer of finishing it. I don't even try. Sometimes, I'll try for Stonehenge really late (i.e. when it is long past when it should have been built and still available.) and I do like to try pick up the Pyramids and the Oracle. I have some successs with that - and have gotten two out of the three. But, still, I only try if my capital has strong growth and production, does not need more buildings and I feel my borders are secure (on my own Island, have only one or two very peaceful neighbors, etc.).

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Babylon also has the advantage where if you get Great Library & Oracle that is 2 GS points which becomes 3 with the GS UA bonus or 4 points per turn if you have Garden & National Epic on top of that.