Why is everyone so hopped up on Rationalism?

Hello, Forum people. I have been lurking here for a while and there seems to be a general consensus that science is king, and rationalism is almost essential at high level. I'm currently playing at Immortal and mostly winning (I've yet to attempt Deity), and so far I don't see why it is so important. I can see that falling too far behind in tech will eventually get you killed, but being a bit behind seems to be fine, especially before the Renaissance, and even in the mid to late game lagging behind the tech leader by six or seven techs (or even fifteen or twenty while you're in the final push for victory) seems to be fine, so long as the tech leader is your friend - and of course they are, because you know which side your diplomacy is buttered.

It seems to me (a humble and amateurish creature) that science, rather than being king, plays second fiddle to diplomacy. Back in Civ 4, this meant having techs that other people didn't, because that was one of your most important diplomatic tools, but in Civ 5 your tools are different. Science seems to me to be just one of a whole set of different things to angle for, and one which can be safely neglected (to a degree) in favour of doing things which will boost your ability to bribe, befriend, threaten, spy, manipulate, and otherwise dictate diplomatic affairs. And as an aside, Scholasticism has, in every game I've taken both that and Rationalism, given me more science per turn than any single rationalism policy.

So: Could I be playing a much better game if I focused on science more? Is Deity going to kill me repeatedly until I have enough science? Or am I correct in my current assessment?

Possibly relevant: I have Gods & Kings but lack Brave New World (don't tell me to get it, I need that money for food); I play on epic; I have never played for or won a science victory (it always seems faster and simpler to go for something else); I like navies (and so have a bias towards Commerce where convenient); and I am mostly talking about games vs AIs (I stand by what I've said for multiplayer but I'm well aware of the difference).

YoungMrNewby said:

I'm currently playing at Immortal and mostly winning (I've yet to attempt Deity), and so far I don't see why it is so important.

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It's not important for winning.

YoungMrNewby said:

Could I be playing a much better game if I focused on science more?

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It's important for winning quickly. You could play a much faster game, if not a much better game.

YoungMrNewby said:

Possibly relevant: I have Gods & Kings but lack Brave New World (don't tell me to get it, I need that money for food)

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If you have civ5 through steam, you can get BNW for cheap; steam regularly runs sales, some of which offer quite dramatic discounts.

With full Rationalism, you would NOT be net behind the AI in techs at the end of the game even on Deity.
(If you fully exploit the rest of science, which it doesn't sound like you're doing because on Immortal you shouldn't be 6 or 7 techs behind the AI in the end game even without it.)

Building / buying science buildings quickly running all science slots, having the first few GS be academies, and after opening rationalism having positive global happiness will cause the Rationalism tree to give you more science than Scholasticism unless you have 12+ city state allies.
(The opener isn't the most powerful of the Rationalism policies, the most powerful is the one increasing the science bonus of universities + science from trade posts, but you want science from specialists first.)

Science is King in BNW because it speeds up ALL victory conditions, including diplomatic and new culture. With bad AI, turn count to victory on a given difficulty level and map is what is used to compare how good players are and not win percentage. (AI just as bad for everybody so with the exception of when Game of The Month is on Deity level 100% of players tend to win.)

G&K (and Vanilla): For old cultural victory science is less important than culture. (Culture needs to be top priority. But when there's no way to improve culture science still important to reach techs allowing cultural wonders faster) Science was still king for Diplomatic victory (reaching Globalism to allow UN construction) and military (reach key tech faster)

Science victory is still much slower than Diplomatic in BNW. New culture is considerably faster than Old culture was if you have 3+ self founded cities and unless this is a Large or Huge map is normally faster than Science victory as well. (Particularly if you add war mongling against the civ with the most culture)

If you like navies, the cultural policy benefiting that is moved to Exploration in BNW.

YoungMrNewby said:

And as an aside, Scholasticism has, in every game I've taken both that and Rationalism, given me more science per turn than any single rationalism policy.

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Early game: rati opener > scholasticism. rati + secularism > scholasticism. Mid to late game as the CS allies pile up and get bigger then scholasticism pulls ahead. I always aim for both but there's no point in going scholasticism before rati and especially before rati + secularism.

Highly recommended for diplo and culture wins. Domination wins is a different matter as you can safely stall science at a certain point and just overwhelm with unit production.

Science is key to every victory, including diplomatic. Opening Rationalism and unlocking Secularism asap allows you to detour in the tech tree to suit your chosen VC. You can unlock Humanism, and Free thought next but I find completing Aesthetics asap works best for a CV for instance. For Domination it seems best to rush Machinery before Education, crossbows usually do well until the AI can build castles and knights.

If you can get to Scientific Theory before t150 and have around 500 bpt then you can say you have won on Emperor and lower. Diplomatic will require work but as the AI gets mad at you for allying their allied CS your units should well out-tech theirs making your pointy-sticks score a lot bigger than it would normally be.

phillipwyllie said:

If you can get to Scientific Theory before t150 and have around 500 bpt then you can say you have won on Emperor and lower. Diplomatic will require work but as the AI gets mad at you for allying their allied CS your units should well out-tech theirs making your pointy-sticks score a lot bigger than it would normally be.

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Or enter Modern era ultra early (Oxford for free Radio) for early ideology and wait until after then to get most of the city states.
(Ideologies trump everything with diplomacy)
(Reaching modern era is much more reliable for getting an ideology early than relying upon coal)

I found Commerce most useful for domination victories. More gold = larger army and more rush buys. If you complete Commerce you can buy Great Merchants with faith, and if your faith is >100 by that point you can get some serious good gold (plus the influence with the CS) because Commerce doubles gold from Great Merchants.

For domination, 50% faster RAs in Rationalism seems very underwhelming when everyone hates you.

I will usually take some of the Rationalism tree (trade post and uni boost and beakers from specialists) but not complete it.

revelation216 said:

I found Commerce most useful for domination victories. More gold = larger army and more rush buys. If you complete Commerce you can buy Great Merchants with faith, and if your faith is >100 by that point you can get some serious good gold (plus the influence with the CS) because Commerce doubles gold from Great Merchants.

For domination, 50% faster RAs in Rationalism seems very underwhelming when everyone hates you.

I will usually take some of the Rationalism tree (trade post and uni boost and beakers from specialists) but not complete it.

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It's not recommended to finish Rationalism for domination victories. And some don't even require it (for CB/XB dominations) at all.

As for OP the real benefit of rationalism is the opener and secularism. The rest is good but has less of an impact (and isn't rationalism even better in GnK ?).

YoungMrNewby said:

I have never played for or won a science victory (it always seems faster and simpler to go for something else); I like navies (and so have a bias towards Commerce where convenient); and I am mostly talking about games vs AIs (I stand by what I've said for multiplayer but I'm well aware of the difference).

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I am also a GnK Immortal player, but standard not epic. What victory types are you getting? I like SV since it seems the most competitive, there is always a race aspect to it. I win less than half the time, so I am trying to get improve my science. Diplo and cultural are faster, but feel a little cheesy to me. I have not been able to conquest fast enough for domination. Would epic speed make that easier? As I understand it, you want to be able to win all four ways before moving up to Deity, so if you have the other three mastered, give SV a try.

Epic speed most definitely makes domination easier. Actually, all war is easier (i.e. war as a means to another victory type like SV).

This is why I love Korea.

Nares said:

It's not important for winning.

It's important for winning quickly.

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This makes sense. Up to now I've been finding enough challenge in working my way up the difficulty levels, and experimenting with different strategies and victory conditions, and so how quickly I win hasn't been a concern. I can easily see that a greater focus on science would lead to faster victories.

joncnunn said:

Building / buying science buildings quickly running all science slots, having the first few GS be academies, and after opening rationalism having positive global happiness will cause the Rationalism tree to give you more science than Scholasticism unless you have 12+ city state allies.
(The opener isn't the most powerful of the Rationalism policies, the most powerful is the one increasing the science bonus of universities + science from trade posts, but you want science from specialists first.)

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Rationalism as a whole obviously gives more science than Scholasticism; Scholasticism just gives more science than any single Rationalism policy. (Partly because I play for city states an awful lot.)

joncnunn said:

Science is King in BNW because it speeds up ALL victory conditions, including diplomatic and new culture. With bad AI, turn count to victory on a given difficulty level and map is what is used to compare how good players are and not win percentage. (AI just as bad for everybody so with the exception of when Game of The Month is on Deity level 100% of players tend to win.)

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I can see why this is, but (perhaps because I'm used to epic), it would seem like Machiavellian warmongering, with the aim of reaching a crushingly dominant position before the start of the Industrial era, would give you the most 'I'm the best player' points every time, and that seems like a sad thing to happen in a game with so many strategic options. If other victories are faster in BNW, though, maybe it wouldn't be.

teqofc said:

Early game: rati opener > scholasticism. rati + secularism > scholasticism. Mid to late game as the CS allies pile up and get bigger then scholasticism pulls ahead. I always aim for both but there's no point in going scholasticism before rati and especially before rati + secularism.

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You don't have access to rationalism in the early game. You don't get it until the renaissance, and that's *miles* into the game. (Although I can see that it would be faster if I rushed my way to the renaissance just in order to get it.) And, by the time I hit the renaissance, Scholasticism has always been worth more to me in per-turn science than the Rationalism opener (maybe because my base level of science is lower than it should be, but probably also because I go out of my way to collect many city state allies).

beetle said:

I am also a GnK Immortal player, but standard not epic. What victory types are you getting? I like SV since it seems the most competitive, there is always a race aspect to it. I win less than half the time, so I am trying to get improve my science. Diplo and cultural are faster, but feel a little cheesy to me. I have not been able to conquest fast enough for domination. Would epic speed make that easier? As I understand it, you want to be able to win all four ways before moving up to Deity, so if you have the other three mastered, give SV a try.

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I most usually get domination, diplomatic less often but still a good proportion of the time. Culture a few times, but only once on a meaningfully high difficulty.

Epic speed means that every tech takes about half as long again to get, and so every age lasts long enough to get plenty done. So if you decide to go on a conquest roll in the medieval era, you can make your way through several neighbours with essentially the same army (if your home economy is strong enough to keep your cash and happiness high as you conquer). Equally, if you start next to Alexander and he invades you at the start of the classical age, it is a long, long, way to medieval military tech. You have to play every era seriously and on its own terms. Unique units have a longer useful lifespan, specific arms combinations can be made to work for longer, military costs more to upgrade, and if you beeline a military tech you can really put it to work before your enemies can catch up (Navigation being my favourite for this); and equally, you have to deal with other people's UUs for longer, and if you beeline for a wonder you have to deal with other people's shiny new military for longer. It makes early domination easier, because you have so many more turns to do it in, but it makes dealing with scary people and runaway civs harder for basically the same reasons.

phillipwyllie said:

If you can get to Scientific Theory before t150 and have around 500 bpt then you can say you have won on Emperor and lower. Diplomatic will require work but as the AI gets mad at you for allying their allied CS your units should well out-tech theirs making your pointy-sticks score a lot bigger than it would normally be.

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What year does t150 translate to? (And I don't believe it. Once I've got past the aagh-I've-started-right-next-to-a-horrifying-warmonger stage of the game, keeping on the right side of the right people has never been a problem for me.)

tetley said:

Epic speed most definitely makes domination easier. Actually, all war is easier (i.e. war as a means to another victory type like SV).

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Yes and no. Getting domination is easier in most circumstances, but there is also a lot more potential for (for example) the Huns to start on the opposite side of Pangaea to you and take over two thirds of the continent by the middle of the medieval age, forcing you to claw your way to victory in the late game after hundreds of turns of defense. And if Greece or Rome or someone invades you early on, you're going to feel the extra turns it takes to get civil service (my experience so far is that the most likely thing to kill me is one of those rushes, and if I can survive the classical age it's probably going to be okay).

I was thinking it was epic speed keeping you from SV. Dom makes the most sense for epic speed. All you describe about epic sounds great, but stealth bombers and nukes are fun too. I would rather play three standard games than one epic one I think.

YoungMrNewby said:

I most usually get domination, diplomatic less often but still a good proportion of the time.

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Okay, so many of your games are going into the last era. I have had several SV where I unlock Globalization on the way to the last spaceship part. In those cases, Diplo Vic might not even have saved turns.

If you work the tech tree a little differently, you might be able to put a SV under your belt without the game being much longer than many that you play.

I think there are two questions essentially being asked here:

1) Why is Rationalism important?
2) Why is Science important?

Rationalism is important because it is a means to get science out of your cultural generation. Everyone will have Monuments (if only for the initial boarder expansion) but there are not many Social Policies that provide Science. Patronage has science from City-State Allies and growth or happiness is indirect Science but Rationalism (specifically +2 Sci from every specialist and +25% faster Great Scientists) provides much larger quantities of Science than any of the pre-Ideology alternatives.

This leads to the second question, why is Science important in Civ5? At Deity you start far enough behind the AI that most paths to victory involve getting a Science lead and then doing something with it. For example, Space Victory involves getting a Science lead, using it to Science even harder and then winning. An Artillery Domination play involves rushing Artillery and crushing as many people as possible before they catch up. (In BNW) Cultural Victory often requires rushing Internet and rocking civilization's faces off.

In each of these styles the more Science you are able to generate early, the sooner you can start your "attack" and the weaker the AI will be. An Artillery attack when the AI has air power will be much less effective than an Artillery attack when the AI only has Gatling Guns.

I'm going to add a couple of remarks, which haven't been posted before:

1. I G&K the AI had problems with completing the scientific victory. It did not take the optimal route for techs for it, did not produce spaceship parts when it was possible, produced them in very low production cities and very often did not add the ready part to the spaceship (you can see such a situation in on of my let's plays - the Babylon one). In BNW all of this has been changed, so if you are 6-7 techs behind an AI in atomic, information era and nowhere close to other victory type you don't have an option to catch up, the AI will launch spaceship long before you.
2. The slower the game pace, the larger advantage of a human player over AI. This is mainly because 1. the AI sucks at warfare and catches up with production. If you slow down their production, you can kill their units without losses and they aren't able to replace them as fast. 2. human players can make better use of their upgraded units and on slower pace they have more time to use them before they go obsolete - what I mean by that is: you have 3 Composite Bowmen with logistics and extra range, on standard pace it will be like 15-20 turns before they go obsolete (you need to take into account the time they need to get these promotions), in which time you can conquer 1 city. On epic the time will double and you can conquer 2 cities, on marathon 4. Both of these aspects make the game much easier on slower pace, as the main threat is mostly a start next to warmongoer against whom it's easier to defend with lower overall production.

I like starting next to warmongerers on marathon. It gives my archers a chance to earn their experience doing some real work, rather than farming for it. Also warmongerers don't turtle. Starting next to a turtle is a bear.