I feel like I suck at this game.

Vathris

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
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I'm not a vet or anything, I bought Civ 5 the week it came out, and that was my introduction to the series. However, despite watching dozens of LP's, reading LOTS of threads and articles, logging over 500 hours in the game (much of that in the NQ group), and going so far as to both write down benchmarks on paper and print out the Pantheon/Religious beliefs (so I can take my time to decide in advance in MP games)...

...I still feel like I suck. I've never won an MP game, I've won a few SP games but even those I win late and always a Turtle-4-Science Victory.

At some point I grasped that beakers were really important and since then I think I've improved a lot, but in any MP game I'm always trailing behind everyone else.

I almost always play 4-city Tradition, aiming for Science or perhaps Diplo Victory. If I roll a warmongering civ I play their style though.

Civ 5 is just so mind-bogglingly complex, (not complicated). I grasp the basic concepts well enough, but the intricacies of timing and long-term strategy do not come so easily to me. I do start games just to sit down and analyze the mechanics but knowing how the pieces function doesn't really help me put them together.

I could post the specifics of my play, but I'm just curious as to how you more experienced players suggest learning this game. I know that playing a lot is important, but any specific tips would be greatly appreciated.
 
To get really good, you've got to play the math. Unlike actual history, civ is a marathon race. Early moves matter. Watching the beakers is good, but they ultimately flow from population and, to a lesser extent, production.

I've played for an embarrassingly long time, but I felt much like you do when I listened to guys who played at Deity. I watched a lot of MadDjinn's let's play videos and learned a lot--including that I just don't like playing Deity. Check some of those out if you want to get a feel for how to play off the feedback in the flow of the game.
 
My friend, dont listen the tactics of other player or you will find your self in deep frustration.....
Just listen to the tips, tips are tings like build a city in a hill, open the honor path (dunt need to finish it) just for early culture bonus when killing barbs and know where there are.....stuff like that.

But the real strategy its something personal and unic for each player, its like a finger-print, no one have the same strategy.....that mean if you try to copy the other players strategy....you will get a big frustration........

Find your self Boy (or Girl)
 
My friend, dont listen the tactics of other player or you will find your self in deep frustration.....
Just listen to the tips, tips are tings like build a city in a hill, open the honor path (dunt need to finish it) just for early culture bonus when killing barbs and know where there are.....stuff like that.

But the real strategy its something personal and unic for each player, its like a finger-print, no one have the same strategy.....that mean if you try to copy the other players strategy....you will get a big frustration........

Find your self Boy (or Girl)

Well said, you can't copy some-else's playstyle once you find your own, mainly by incorporating good tips, & finding good civs, you will become much better. Last year I was a prince player, then I started playing more, found a strategy I liked & was good at, now I have about 6 Emperor games under my belt, and I'm thinking about moving up to Immortal.
 
Focus on Science (all victories require this greatly) (wonders 4 culture) (spaceships parts for science) (more gold and info era for diplo) (good units for dom), try to bribe large threats (usually the person with the most cities) to attack the second largest threat so your threats will be at war and wont have as much time to focus on victory.
 
I think multiplayer is a hard place to start. Im a civ 3, 4, 5 veteran here. One thing I should say is I never aimed to be "good" at the game. I just loved how fun it was. So I hope the game is still enjoyable as it is challenging.

Its some small tips which I dont mind sharing

An oasis is considered freshwater - farm near those if the land is plains or grassland. It works with civil service.

Early turns a city on a hill is easy to defend since ur ranged unit will be safe inside the city and has a wide attack.

Luxuries yield gold so definitely build cities near them but usually never on them.

Tradition 4 city is good but consider trying different things and different strategies.

Liberty is a fun easy tree to understand and play. Try different civs. Know unique abilities etc. Tradition is a bit more thought intensive since u only have 4 cities or so.

Wheat, cattle, bananas, and citrus give a lot of early food so a new city with this resource in its culture borders grow quicker than if it had stone or just plains.

NEVER farm plains unless next to river (a farmed plains is 2 food 1 production - the citizen working it eats 1 food itself so it goes back to being a plains.)

Once I understood tile yields - the game got a lot more strategic, easy, and fun for me.
 
I am content to win on King, so I can only speak from that perspective. I have played over 2000 hours, and on a scale from 1 to 10, in terms of optimal play, maybe I am at 6.

When I first played, I played too quickly. I still play quickly, but I did slow it down. You want to avoid obvious mistakes like unnecessarily losing units, failing to trade off luxuries and strategic resources, not exploring as much as you should, not being prepared for war at all, and building stuff that's obviously less helpful than something else.

Experience has been my teacher really. That and trying to pay more attention to some things.

I guess the cliche phrase would be to say the devil is in the details. The more you pay attention to every decision and try to evaluate options, the more I think you improve up to a point.

For example, I don't have a fixed build order. If happiness is threatened, I focus on that. Even if doing science, some buildings like Market might make sense, if the gain from them is high, or money is tight. If I am feeling threatened I build some defense, if not, I just build wonders and key buildings.

Micro manage your workers. Automating them probably results in sub optimal improvement order, but later in the game, when they are mainly improving tiles that won't get worked anytime soon, I automate.

If possible, stick to the goal, as resources are limited. Only build not science related buildings which really help your cause if working on science.
 
Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I have some basic questions about the game that have always gnawed at me:

#1. What's a good time to build Libraries and the NC, and to what extent can I delay them when warmongering? Usually I time it so the Library is done when capital hits 6 pop and NC after 2nd city finally finishes Library (about 20 turns later).

#2. I often delay Education, what's a good time to get this? (A specific turn # would be nice.)

#3. What are good beakers-per-turn benchmarks for turns 50, 100, 200, 300? I think I average like 40, 90, 140, 230 or something like that.

#4. What are coastal cities good at, and bad at? A sea resource-heavy start I assume is more geared to be a Growth/Science city?

#5. What are the most important things to do to increase your Science? Prioritize food like HG, or get Education, or sign RA's, or get GS?

#6. Early on, should I be using caravans to shuttle food or bring in gold? I usually do the former unless I am hurting for gold.
 
Play other competitive strategy games, specifically starcraft and Dota or LoL. They can both teach you many transferable skills where resource management, build growth, prioritization, and properly pushing advantages are concerned. If you've hit a brick wall in Civ, a fresh environment might push you through some of the mental blocks.
 
Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I have some basic questions about the game that have always gnawed at me:

#1. What's a good time to build Libraries and the NC, and to what extent can I delay them when warmongering? Usually I time it so the Library is done when capital hits 6 pop and NC after 2nd city finally finishes Library (about 20 turns later).

#2. I often delay Education, what's a good time to get this? (A specific turn # would be nice.)

#3. What are good beakers-per-turn benchmarks for turns 50, 100, 200, 300? I think I average like 40, 90, 140, 230 or something like that.

#4. What are coastal cities good at, and bad at? A sea resource-heavy start I assume is more geared to be a Growth/Science city?

#5. What are the most important things to do to increase your Science? Prioritize food like HG, or get Education, or sign RA's, or get GS?

#6. Early on, should I be using caravans to shuttle food or bring in gold? I usually do the former unless I am hurting for gold.


1. If going for a 2 city NC you should aim (don't be hard on yourself if you can't reach this, but try to.) to get both libraries done by turn 65-70 and NC up by turn 80.

2. Education should be reached at turn 110 ish and the pros somehow save up a bunch of gold to buy all the universities by turn 115, but don't worry about that.

3. 40 by turn 50 and 90 by turn 100 seem fine to me, however 140 by turn 200 is far too low, I'm usually at around 400-500 bpt at that point if I'm having a good game.

4. Coastal resources are good at growth due to food trade routes, but bad at production.

5. Prioritise food and population growth and get your science building up early as possible while staying happy the whole time. RA's are pretty useless at the moment. Scientist slots should always be worked to the exclusion of all other slots (also never work merchant slots) so long as it doesn't slow down city growth too badly.

6. What you're doing is fine, on lower difficulties it's better to do food early on and only do gold late game when it's highly profitable, however on the high difficulties gold caravans early on can net you a lot of science due to AI head start.

Keep in mind all my advice is geared towards standard speeds and normal settings
 
Play other competitive strategy games, specifically starcraft and Dota or LoL. They can both teach you many transferable skills where resource management, build growth, prioritization, and properly pushing advantages are concerned. If you've hit a brick wall in Civ, a fresh environment might push you through some of the mental blocks.

Heh, I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, been playing RTS/strategy since AoE II and Age of Mythology. Played Paradox games like Hearts of Iron. Hit Masters in SC2 although never wanted to try LoL. Civ and SC2 are at polar extremes of the strategy spectrum for me, where SC2 is about testing how fast your nervous system works, Civ is more about very careful deliberation, adaptation, and long-term planning. SC2 has these elements, but the two games aren't very alike in my eyes. For one, Civ 5 doesn't try and give me a heart attack.

Anyway, just played a 1v1 on Immortal against Monty on Archipelago. I wanted to cap Tenochtitlan ASAP and I ended up winning by turn 181. Built 2 cities as Byzantium, then went Galleass/Musketman/Armory+Heroic Epic and did an amphibious invasion.

My Science at turn 192 is 72 (yes, 72). Constantinople is at 17 pop and Adrianople is at 10 pop, and I have 61 gold in gross income. NC and Libraries were up early, just can't remember the exact turn. Just now getting Universities up, may have overbuilt units with like 8 Galleass, 4 Muskets against a 34 strength walled capital. Made 2 cannons but they didn't make it in time to help.
 
Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I have some basic questions about the game that have always gnawed at me:

#1. What's a good time to build Libraries and the NC, and to what extent can I delay them when warmongering? Usually I time it so the Library is done when capital hits 6 pop and NC after 2nd city finally finishes Library (about 20 turns later).
1. If going for a 2 city NC you should aim (don't be hard on yourself if you can't reach this, but try to.) to get both libraries done by turn 65-70 and NC up by turn 80.
I agree, although in a two city situation, I think you could do it quicker. If at all possible, make a friend, sell a duplicate luxury for 240 g, save up to buy second library.
#2. I often delay Education, what's a good time to get this? (A specific turn # would be nice.)
2. Education should be reached at turn 110 ish and the pros somehow save up a bunch of gold to buy all the universities by turn 115, but don't worry about that.
Agreed. Definitely not a pro. Usually have to build unis. You do know about the slots in unis, right? Take citizens off of tiles and work the uni slots.
#3. What are good beakers-per-turn benchmarks for turns 50, 100, 200, 300? I think I average like 40, 90, 140, 230 or something like that.
3. 40 by turn 50 and 90 by turn 100 seem fine to me, however 140 by turn 200 is far too low, I'm usually at around 400-500 bpt at that point if I'm having a good game.
I'm just starting to pay attention to this. I too can reach the early numbers, but the later ones are tough for me. I think planting multiple GS early (pre Public Schools) and Observatorys are critical to reach the high numbers. Its easier for me to reach high numbers on Culture and Tourism than Science.
#4. What are coastal cities good at, and bad at? A sea resource-heavy start I assume is more geared to be a Growth/Science city?
4. Coastal resources are good at growth due to food trade routes, but bad at production.
Yes, Commerce and Exploration Policy trees can help, but not sure if their worth it.
#5. What are the most important things to do to increase your Science? Prioritize food like HG, or get Education, or sign RA's, or get GS?
5. Prioritise food and population growth and get your science building up early as possible while staying happy the whole time. RA's are pretty useless at the moment. Scientist slots should always be worked to the exclusion of all other slots (also never work merchant slots) so long as it doesn't slow down city growth too badly.
All of the above. Critical decisions must be made to balance growth, production, and happiness in the early turns. This is why Tradition is sooo very powerful. It gives you help in all of these areas, and they seem to come at exactly the right time. The choice between Landed Elite and Monarchy comes downs to what your land is giving you. Slow growth, take LE; low happiness, take Monarchy. Both...maybe you could decide to dip into Liberty a bit. I have a hard time not staying in Tradition though.
#6. Early on, should I be using caravans to shuttle food or bring in gold? I usually do the former unless I am hurting for gold.
6. What you're doing is fine, on lower difficulties it's better to do food early on and only do gold late game when it's highly profitable, however on the high difficulties gold caravans early on can net you a lot of science due to AI head start.
Agreed again. @direblade99 You give great advice, btw. If food is high and happiness is being pushed to the limit, quicker Workshops for production trade routes may be appropriate.
Keep in mind all my advice is geared towards standard speeds and normal settings
Same here. I play Prince for fun most of the time (and to build most of the Wonders). I play Deity to teach myself how to get better (and play without the Great Library). Not much in between anymore. On vanilla and GK, I played all
from Prince up. Proudest moment, one city emperor victory with China. Most shameful moment, first pre turn 300 victory ever came on Deity(Diplomatic). Shameful because I was last in every single category, two eras behind, and Egypt was sitting on tens of thousands of gold and only bought out 2 of my CS allies. Hardly felt like a win.
 
Well, if you're focusing too much on how much they're not alike, you're actively closing your mind off from any transferable skills. Heck, I could even draw useful comparisons from the competitive fighting game genre. You're talking about testing your nervous system as though that's something more than superficial. Look deeper, strategy is strategy, doesn't matter where you find it.
 
I'm probably repeating some other people here, but let me tell my own experience. I started with CIV 2, which I played like a chimpanzee, just hit every button to see what happens. So I had that dreaded old-school experience of fighting "armors" (tanks) with spearmen. I only started getting good when I finally understood how terrain, population and specialists work. So here's my hints:

1. Learn to use the citizen management screen to place your citizens on adequate plots accordingly to what you need at the moment. If you're building a wonder, you can place them on production plots and grow slowly or even accept some temporary starvation.

2. Science is directly derived from population. Population is derived from food. Each citizen consumes 2 food, so you need to work on hexes with 3 or more food to grow. Every plot with less than 2 food is deficitary, being sustained by other plots. Every specialist is also deficitary. That's why bonuses like wheat, fish or cows and wonders like The Hanging Gardens are so important. Farms only give you one additional food at the start of the game. Farms built nearby rivers, lakes or oases give you 2 additional food when you research Civil Service. Only when you have fertilizer you'll get 2 plus food from farms without fresh water.

3. All above is before considering trade routes, which can artificially grow a city in a less ideal spot. Try to develop your growth strategy before you start relying on caravans.

4. Jungles are great for science, after you have Universities. So you'll want to plant a city in the middle of the jungle, pump it with food caravans and cash-buy everything, because its production will be meager. Don't build plantations on bananas, it's not worth losing science for a single extra food and you get an extra food from bananas with granary without ever needing to chop the jungle.

5. Not every city has to have everything. You can have a production-heavy city (for example, in place with lots of stone, iron and hills) without much food tiles - you still need enough food tiles to sustain the production ones. And, as in the previous topic, you can have a science city without production. A large city that doesn't need to work production tiles is also an ideal place for specialists.

6. Culture is hard to come by at the start of the game. That's why Tradition is favored by most players. 3 additional culture in your capital is equivalent to a culture building filled with a great work, something you'll only get way later in the game (unless you build the Pantheon).

7. Since BNW, money is also a pain. Before you have trade routes and trading posts, you'll only get it from luxury and sea resources.

8. Religion is also hard for civilizations that doesn't have a faith bonus. Try to settle near faith-giving natural wonders and get Stonehenge, research Pottery/Calendar and start building it asap. Give preference to pantheons which yield you free faith, as Desert Folklore - of course, which is better depends on your starting region, it's no use having faith from desert when you're in tundra.

9. A good, basic science slingshot, that works on difficulties bellow Immortal, is researching Pottery>Writing, building the Great Library while you research Calendar, picking Philosophy as your free tech, then Building National College immediately. Just be aware of the final topic, which is...

10. Know your neighbors. You have to play a different game if you start nearby Attila, Ashurbanipal, Montezuma, Shaka or Gengis Khan than you would if your neighbors are Pedro or Gandhi. Specially in the first cases, you need to have walls and a defense force ASAP.
 
Some good advice in here...

I'm perhaps judging myself too harshly as most of my self-evaluation comes from multiplayer, where I regularly find my empire is pathetic and weak compared to the leaders.

I used to think that I was just weak because I never conquered, or spammed cities everywhere with Liberty (this was in Vanilla Civ 5). Then I started paying attention to science and that helped my game, but after playing another MP game today I think that I just don't play my situation enough.

For example, I don't do many alterations to my strategy depending on what is going on in the game. I'm learning to be more flexible, for example, if I roll a peaceful civ but the situation is RIPE for conquest I'm learning to shift my plan accordingly, and vice versa. Too often I try and sit on my land when it's obvious from the first 50 turns that if I don't do something radical I'm going to lose the game in 300 turns. In short, I'm focusing on winning more, which ironically I wasn't doing before. I was focused on growing my cities, building things, and increasing my cash and faith, which doesn't necessarily mean anything unless it ties in to a plan to win. There are a million-and-one things that are "nice" to have but a few things you really NEED to have.

In MP, it becomes apparent who is pulling ahead within the first 100 turns. I'm learning to recognize this and act on it (forming alliances, declaring war, subtle sabotage) instead of crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

That's what I'm thinking on right now anyways.

I conquered my first enemy civ today in MP. Granted it was Venice, but it's a start! :)
 
Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I have some basic questions about the game that have always gnawed at me:

#1. What's a good time to build Libraries and the NC, and to what extent can I delay them when warmongering? Usually I time it so the Library is done when capital hits 6 pop and NC after 2nd city finally finishes Library (about 20 turns later).

#2. I often delay Education, what's a good time to get this? (A specific turn # would be nice.)

#3. What are good beakers-per-turn benchmarks for turns 50, 100, 200, 300? I think I average like 40, 90, 140, 230 or something like that.

#4. What are coastal cities good at, and bad at? A sea resource-heavy start I assume is more geared to be a Growth/Science city?

#5. What are the most important things to do to increase your Science? Prioritize food like HG, or get Education, or sign RA's, or get GS?

#6. Early on, should I be using caravans to shuttle food or bring in gold? I usually do the former unless I am hurting for gold.

1. Build libraries as 1st build in new cities (if you took tradition, get free monument). For cap: wait until pop is 4-6 AND it takes less than 10 turns to build while still growing. NC when researching CS, around t70-90. Build worker for cap and buy/steal the rest unless a city can build one in 20 turns or less; use leftover gold to buy libraries. Best for 4-city tradition.

2. Education by t110 and NO LATER than t130.

3. After building universities bpt should be equal to turn number (so at t125, bpt would be at 125). Grow ASAP, beeline schools, get rationalism policies. By t200 bpt should be 400. ST at t175, plastics at t220. Deity turn times should be ~10 turns less for each. At endgame bpt should be about 900, no less than 750.

4. Coastal cities are great for sea trade routes. Either send them to other civs for x2 gold or send them to your cap for up to 12 production/food per turn each. Also, if you have river and 2+ sea resources, you're set food-wise. If there are no resources, the land portion is crappy, and/or the majority tiles are sea, you might have trouble growing. Then again, food trade routes.

5. In order for importance to bpt:
a. Growth and happiness. Cap size should be 10 by education, 15 by ST, 20 by plastics, 25 endgame AT LEAST. Base bpt is determined by population, so a city with all science buildings and 10 pop at the endgame is useless.
b. Science buildings, ESPECIALLY NC in cap ASAP. Without these you'd have a hard time getting used to the exponentially-increasing tech costs.
c. GS. Academies make a big difference especially if planted early. However, saving 5-10 GS to bulb at the end for sudden SV or to catch up isn't a bad idea. General rule is: plant your first two, save the rest to bulb for crucial moments (etc. endgame, getting dynamite/flight before AI).
d. RAs. Unless going for an SV AND you're filthy rich it's not a good idea to make RAs with smaller nations, since now the beaker return is calculated by what the LESSER civ generated in the past 4 turns. Make them with the 2 strongest civs, and don't feel compelled to renew them if they're not worth it.

6. Use caravans for gold and sea routes for food to cap.
 
Only 500 hours of this game? That's not enough. :)

I have 1,594 hours and I can barely beat Emperor, even with all the advice I have followed from the forums and LP's such as Madjinn.

Really, you just need to get used to it, you'll finally learn the basics and know what to do with each civilization and how to respond to a situation. :)
 
important concepts that I recently realized is important.

-micromange to the max. if you're 1 turn away from a pop, switch everything to specialist or production. Imagine doing this for every pop up to ten pop and every time you do it you net 7-10 hammers. thats around 70-100 extra hammer. Now you do it for every city, say you have 4 cities. Thats 280-400 production. One extra building or unit.

-caravan. On high difficulty, this is crucial. The beakers they give you can range from 3-9 early game. 5 caravan pumping 15-45 beaker and 100 gold pays for itself in 30 turns. Its like having an extra 8 pop city with library. Or you can pump food to stimulate capital growth. Man it's so strong. Make sure you get a granary in the city first.

-national college. Get it asap. Extremely important. Did you read that? Doesn't matter what you do, what victory condition you go, getting national college early is a necessity.

-trade away horses and iron. Say you have 3 of each. Thats 6 * 45 = 320. That's one free building/unit every 30 turn.

-diplomacy. Send your neighbor into wars, preferably with nations far away. If you send your neighbor into a war with his neighbor, they have a chance to demolish that nation and absorb it making it very strong and all of a sudden you have a major threat. But you send them to war so that they suffer diplomatic penalty with everyone else and you can send other people (cheaply) to attack him keeping him infinitely too busy for them to attack you.

If you haven't used these tips, it can give you: one free building, 15-45 beaker, 100g, extra productions/culture/ and peace
 
-micromange to the max. if you're 1 turn away from a pop, switch everything to specialist or production. Imagine doing this for every pop up to ten pop and every time you do it you net 7-10 hammers. thats around 70-100 extra hammer. Now you do it for every city, say you have 4 cities. Thats 280-400 production. One extra building or unit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't excess food overflow to the next turn? So you would gain no benefit from switching to production focus just because the city is about to grow.

Now, if you're talking about the production trick, where you lock the city on its food tiles THEN set production focus, so next turn the newly born citizen can net you an extra hammer or two (due to how the mechanics work) then yes, I do that for all my cities until they hit pop 5 or so.
 
My friend, dont listen the tactics of other player or you will find your self in deep frustration.....
Just listen to the tips, tips are tings like build a city in a hill, open the honor path (dunt need to finish it) just for early culture bonus when killing barbs and know where there are.....stuff like that.

But the real strategy its something personal and unic for each player, its like a finger-print, no one have the same strategy.....that mean if you try to copy the other players strategy....you will get a big frustration........

Find your self Boy (or Girl)

Could not of said it better Tarbo.
The forums are a great source of info you can pick and choose as you feel.
 
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