Recovering top literacy

AW Arcaeca

Deus Vult
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Operation Padlock ground zero
So I played as Babylon, going for a science victory. And up until about 1750ish AD I had the best literacy in the entire game, exceeding the AI average by about 5% at any given time. Then somehow Germany, in some swift move, replaced me as most literate. Now it's about 1830, and he's still beating me about 6%. :cringe:

How did he do it? And how do I get back in first? Because my approach of building as many public schools isn't working, and the maintenance cost of them is killing my economy.

I would attach the save but I don't know where Civ5 saves are kept... :confused:
 
For saves, it should be located somewhere like:

C:\Users\browd\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\Saves\single

On the tech point, you don't mention how swiftly Germany has grown. A frequent source of AI research surges is rapid population growth (either native growth or growth from conquering). Another source can be Research Agreements -- a lot of them.

Public schools should not be killing your economy. By the time you get to public schools, gold per turn should not be an issue. How many cities do you have, are they connected by appropriate roads (for city connection income), how many trade routes do you have, etc.?
 
Agreed with above poster. Your doing something with regards to economy wrong, but it has nothing to do with the science buildings.

Babylon civ is most designed for what you should do anyway as just about every civ:
Get Libraries, Universities, etc. early; fill all science slots. Run Rationalism.
Rest depends upon version.

Vanilla: Settle first scientist as an academy and bulb the rest at key points.
Also, in this version, don't accept any DOFs, but sign a lot of RAs.

G&K: Settle the first several scientists as academies (at least until Public Education) following which you bulb.
Manual build Leaning Tower and use it to select a GE and use that to rush PT.
Unless the patch right before G&K changed things, don't bother with DOFs. Few AIs have had cash on hand for RAs since the Fall patch.

BNW: Like G&K, only it appears to me the break even point may be closer to Plastics.
And with the requirement to open Rationalism in order to build PT, you can probably manual build it.
Check the AIs treasuries. It's worth while to sign DOFs now that the AI can afford RAs again. And quite a bit easier to keep the peace.
 
For saves, it should be located somewhere like:

C:\Users\browd\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\Saves\single

On the tech point, you don't mention how swiftly Germany has grown. A frequent source of AI research surges is rapid population growth (either native growth or growth from conquering). Another source can be Research Agreements -- a lot of them.

Public schools should not be killing your economy. By the time you get to public schools, gold per turn should not be an issue. How many cities do you have, are they connected by appropriate roads (for city connection income), how many trade routes do you have, etc.?

10 cities, and every single one has a trade route. Note Bismarck is on a completely different continent in the middle of unknown territory and I only know of one city -his capital, because of an embassy. It follows that I don't know how many cities he has or likewise how quickly he has been expanding.

Settle the first several scientists as academies (at least until Public Education) following which you bulb.

Somehow I've only gotten... I believe 3 GS's in the entire game: one from writing, with which I bulbed iron working, one from porcelain tower who built an academy, and one from who knows where that also built an academy.

Couldn't post the save; it exceeds the limit for uploading civ5 save files by 0.21 MB. :twitch:
 
It sounds like you aren't purposefully working your science specialists (re the "who knows where" comment). You should have generated many more GSs by now.

You can zip or rar the save and load the compressed file (file size limits are greater). Or upload the save to Dropbox (or similar service) and provide a link.
 
It sounds like you aren't purposefully working your science specialists (re the "who knows where" comment). You should have generated many more GSs by now.

You can zip or rar the save and load the compressed file (file size limits are greater). Or upload the save to Dropbox (or similar service) and provide a link.

If I kept adding science specialists to all my cities (which I eventually decided to start doing), wouldn't that make them stagnate, limiting the effectiveness of science buildings?

BTW here's the save:
 

Attachments

  • BabylonSV.zip
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Nope. Food, food, food, grow, grow, grow. Lock down your food tiles first, work farms and build food buildings, get friendships and alliances with maritime CSs, use internal trade routes to supply food where needed, etc. Use every tool at your disposal to grow your population, both before you have scientist slots to work and afterwards. If you have strong food generation and 10+ pop, you can work every science slot in that city. That is where you get more beakers (specialists are both population, for baseline science, and generate extra science in their own regard, plus generate Great Scientist points to generate GSs).

And you need to do all that to stay competitive, much less win.

I'm having to reinstall Civ V right now (long story), so it will be a bit longer before I can load your save.
 
Okay, so I have a lot to cover here. The most immediate issue I see is that you're going to be spending the next 14 turns building the national treasury in your cap, which only gives you 8 gold and isn't worth the costs.
Next up, Babylon ought to be bigger. by the time you're in, Babylon ought to be upwards of size 25. Remember that your UA gives you a big bonus towards great scientists. You want to stack as many bonuses onto that as you possibly can. I see that you've focused scientists- that's good.

You don't have a granary or a garden in Babylon. You need to pivot off of the national treasury and focus on one of those. The garden will give you more great scientists and faster. The granary will allow you to grow Babylon more properly. Then you need an aqueduct in order to continue that growth.

It looks to me that you're trying to go wide for this one? That's all fine and dandy, but Babylon is more geared towards going tall. Don't build more cites, focus on growing the ones you have.

Now on to the money problem. Your biggest expense that could be better allocated is the massive amount of money you've spent on troops for some reason. It doesn't look like you've gone to war yet in this game, all of your cities are original and your reputation is pretty good. Unless you're planning to do some conquest soon, I'd disband a lot of that military or at least gift it to a city state for points. You appear to be more advanced than the other AIs(barring Bismark), so on prince you really don't need to worry about being attacked.

There are some other weird things going on(having a castle in your capital that isn't on a border, for example) in this game, but you should be alright if you research fertilizer, and then go up to plastics, as well as following my other advice.
 
OK, looked at the save and I have some initial diagnostics/state assessments, and then some thoughts and recommendations. to be brutally frank, you've underplayed this in a lot of ways, but that's where learning comes from. And all is not lost -- this is Prince, after all, where AI victories come very late (often well after turn 400), so there's ample time to turn this into a romp.

Babs, G&K, Prince, Continents, Standard speed, turn 284. BPT is now 420 (due to shifting to work specialists), but culture is 50 cpt, and your finances are pitiful (32 gold and 0 gpt.

You've settled 10 cities, but they are all undersized -- capital is 11 (34 turns to next citizen), Akkad is 10, and the rest range from 4 to 9, and growing slowly or stagnated. Babylon has two academies planted on flood plains tiles, but other flood plains and other farmable tiles are unimproved. You also have very poor production in your capital (17 hammers), with unimproved forests that could either have lumbermills or be chopped for production and then farmed.

In fact, you only have 4 workers in your entire empire, and 3 of them are asleep. You have needed more workers for ages, and you need to work the workers you have. Tile improvements (other than roads) cost no maintenance, and your citizens should not be working unimproved tiles--that is borderline criminal neglect of your empire's subjects.

On military, you have 16 crossbows, 1 upgradeable composite bow, a musketman, 2 longswords, a pike and two spearmen -- on Prince. Why? Your deal history shows no peace treaties and you aren't at war with anyone, so why have you invested so much in military. That said, you haven't put any boats in the water, so you haven't fully explored the coastline of your own continent and know nothing about the 4 civs on the other continent. You've only met 7 CSs, so half or more of the CSs out there are strangers to you. You've had Astronomy for a while; spit out a couple of caravels and see the world.

Social policies are also a bit confusing. You took Liberty, which makes sense for a wide empire, and then a couple of points in Commerce, which is OK but not great (some points in Patronage would have helped you ally some maritime CSs for food and cultural CSs for culture), and then opened Rationalism (good), but then went down the right side of Rationalism (Humanism and Sovereignty), rather than the left side (the side with the ... um ... actual science contribution). For a science game, left side of Rationalism! (Frankly for a diplomatic or domination game, left side of Rationalism also.) And, because your culture rate is low, it's 29 turns to your next policy, so it will be a long slog to get your policy choices on the right track.

On wonders, you've been reasonably restrained, but Colossus in a city with only one sea resource tile was a questionable choice -- probably would have been a better use for those hammers. Same goes for Natinal Treasury in your capital -- you have more important things to build there, like a granary, aqueduct and garden In fact, none of your cities have granaries or aqueducts, but they all have walls. Given how peaceful things are, walls should not have had priority over granaries and aqueducts.

By working most of your specialists, you are now up to 420 beakers per turn, which is light for the late 200s. It's undoubtedly better than where you were not long ago, but not as good as it would be with the left side Rationalism policies. Still, your cities can't grow, so you are likely to stagnate at this level as your enemies pick up steam.

And your competition is racing ahead. On this continent, Germany now has 17-18 cities, and has taken over the tech lead. Hmmm, maybe your army will come in for some use.

I think you need to get your workers farming up a storm (spit out a few more to help) and focus non city growth (granaries ASAP, and Fertilizer may be your best next tech - 5 turns).

I think I'm going to play your save forward a bit and then report back (with spoiler tags).
 
So I know that betwean what I and Browd have said things might get a little confusing, but really it's not that bad. In summery:
1. Utilize your workers
2. Either use your military on Korea or Polynesia, or get rid of it. Right now, it's the problem, not the solution.
3. Grow your cities
4. Explore the world
5. Beeline plastics and fertilizer

This game is in your grasp, and it can be turned around reasonably easily.
 
Yep. Played forward about 25 turns. Science is up to just under 600 bpt (with secularism), and a couple more GSs have spawned (one planted for another academy and the other saved for bulbing Plastics). Cities are growing, culture is up (friends with Florence and working on Monaco, with monuments, amphitheaters, and opera houses coming on line), and a couple of caravels are sailing the high seas, with a knight exploring the rest of your continent courtesy of open borders from Darius and Kammy (needed OB to get your caravels out to sea anyway).

Sold off as many horses as the AI would buy, plus excess luxuries, and sold off some units for gold (disbanding one spearman freed up 5 gpt) to buy some workers and build more. Got Fertilizer and chopped a lot of forests for farms, farmed every riverside hill in sight, workboats for fish, some lighthouses. GPT is still doing poorly, partly because Darius's religion is sweeping through the continent, converting your cities and demolishing your modest income from tithe. Was able to buy 3 or 4 cathedrals before those cities lost your religion. However, his guruship belief is arguably better for you than Religious Community, so OK there. Monasteries is less useful (provides some culture), so probably save faith for GSs.

Victory is still a challenge, but eminently do-able. Have fun!
 
Thanks for the help guys. But, I would like to point out:

Your biggest expense that could be better allocated is the massive amount of money you've spent on troops for some reason. It doesn't look like you've gone to war yet in this game
Your deal history shows no peace treaties and you aren't at war with anyone, so why have you invested so much in military

At one point harald did actually attack me; granted it was a weak force with only about 5 catapults and a few pikemen, conveniently he attacked while I building up an army just in case that exact situation came up. I kept the military just in case he decided to attack again, as well as use it as a potential counterstrike force in case sejong - who coveted my lands for some reason - decided to attack.

At any rate, I am still trying to learn Civ5 and do appreciate the advice, so basically I just need to:
- Add more science specialists
- Use my military to destroy the competition or just get rid of my military
- Build as many farms as possible + granaries/aqueducts
- Don't bother with religion anymore; just use the faith to buy GSs.
Is that pretty much it?
 
I wouldn't say don't bother with religion. On this map, Darius was the religious dynamo, so fighting that wave of pressure turned out to be a fool's errand, but there's no reason you would have known that earlier in the game, as you are founding your own religion. Since you were going wide, getting a strong religion, with happiness and gold benefits, and trying to spread it around the world (like Darius did) can make a lot of sense. But, once it's clear that you are going to lose the religious war, investing further in trying to hold back the tide is not worth doing.

That's just one more example of how plans may have to change in response to changed circumstances. How you respond to those changed circumstances is the real test.
 
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