bcool
Deity
OkayI don't like the way you add comments in color interspersed between someone else's quote without using the quoting mechanism of the forum.
It makes it hard to quote what you write.
Printing Press will give us 4-5 additional raw commerce in the capital in 6-7 turns from now and maybe a total of 6 in 12 turns time. So bulbing printing press will get us Printing Press 4-5 turns earlier. So bulbing printing press will get us an additional 25 commerce we wouldn't get teching printing press slowly.Are you sure we can turn off research in ~35t? I believe it can be done in ~30t. Consider the turns that can be saved right now on nearly 3/4 bulb of Printing Press. Too bad we don't have more Villages and Towns that could benefit from the +1C for Villages and additional +1 for Towns.
If we don't build the academy I would much rather bulb astronomy. Astronomy doesn't get any tech prerequisite modifiers. Unlike any of the other techs on the path to Mass Media. So a great scientist bulbing astronomy basically gives us its full ~1750B value. A great scientist bulbing printing press gives us ~1750B as well but when we put research into Printing Press our research is multiplied by 1.2 for having a prerequisite for Printing Press. So the bulb of Printing Press really saves us only 1750B/1.2 = 1458 raw science. 1750-1458 =292 in total savings for bulbing astronomy instead of printing press. Bulbing astronomy gives us more value than bulbing printing press by a large margin. Printing Press only gives us about 25 extra commerce in the capital that we wouldn't get otherwise.
I justified it because the academy will help us after we tech mass media. The long term strategic goal is to conquer the eastern witches. In order to conquer the eastern witches we were hoping to switch to nationhood and draft musketeers. This requires that we research/trade/steal for Nationalism and Gunpowder. I think there is a very good chance we will be able to steal or trade for gunpowder. I think there is a decent chance that an AI will not tech nationalism for us by the time we want to switch or we will not be able to steal or trade for it.Absolutely, no Academy. It is too late; I don't understand how you can justify it when it loses 300B by your own calculations when it matters. We can't generate enough Great Scientists to perform all the bulbs that would be possible; we certainly can't afford to expend them on academies, not even one in the Capital.
Also there are a few techs that would be very useful to us beyond mass media that the AI will likely be far too slow to tech for us. Here are a few. Since it will take time to build the UN we will have some time to tech some useful things after Mass Media. With an academy it will be easier to get
- Chemisty would give us +1 hammers on our workshops (and unlock frigates--although I doubt they would be useful in a reasonable time frame)
- Biology would give us +1 food in all of our farms that we could use to grow our population and have that many more votes. It could also be given away to an AI we hope to increase in size to be our rival, or given to our friends so they grow and have more votes for us.
- Any techs that research after Mass Media could also be given to the AI for possible "you shared technologies" with us bonuses.
I agree. However, I don't think we are taking it too far.I agree, but it can hurt us to try too hard to avoid completing Scientific Method just to keep a few TAP monasteries and The Great Library going a few more turns. In my opinion, it is more likely to hinder our research progress than help, if taken too far.
Getting Scientific Method ~5 turns earlier means we lose the value on ~3 monasteries and the Great Library. Each monastery is producing 2 hammers for us and about 8 in washington 8 in GPFarm and 3 in Stone city. The great library produces 12 *1.6 = 18 and 24 per turn.
So Scientific Method 5 turns earlier costs 30 , 191 120 (however the might not be useful)
Getting
No I didn't. Here is why. There is a strong possibility that we will use the Golden Age to switch to Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, and Theocracy while we are finishing Mass Media or already have finished Mass Media. (Which brings up the possibility of whipping the remaining hammers necessary for building the UN after we use the great engineer--I don't anyone has mentioned that already). We could time the GA so that we get maybe the first 2 turns of the GA to help us produce a great person under caste system and pacifism and then use the the last 6 to switch into Police State, Nationhood, Slavery, and Theocracy, and then back into whatever civics we want to finish the game in at the end of the GA. If we use the GA in this way it won't significantly help our great person production.It doesn't appear that you took into account a Golden Age which would increase GPP generation by an additional +100% for 8t. We still have the Music Great Artist; when do we use him for a GA? I asked this question in recent post as well.
yes you did.Yes, I stated in my post that I probably over estimated the turns and I also only tracked GPFarm and I believe I noted that other cities might add a few GSs of their own.
You were also discussing the micromanagement of the great people production--or at least estimating turns when the great people would be produced. I just pointed out that I have already made more detailed estimates for the great people production.You are getting into the micromanagement phase of this turn set, before the bigger issues are resolved. I'd prefer to concentrate on the higher level (strategic part) of the turn set development process right now.
Re: the value of the academy revisited
STW feels the value of the bulb is more than the academy, so I am revisiting my academy calculations.
For the next 8 turns or so the capital will likely not have bureacracy and will only produce science after Oxford is finished so 5 turns of approximately 46 commerce until T151. revolt T152. T153 With bureacracy and printing press this goes up to about 75 commerce. By T165 with a test game I have washington producing 94 commerce. I'll assume Washing produces an average of 85 commerce for 12 turns from T153 to T164. At T165 and beyond I will assume 94 commerce.
At T183 the academy produces ~1800 after prerequisite modifier science assuming 100% science the whole way.
However, getting scientific method 5 turns earlier by bulbing one of the tech before it, loses approximately 181 *1.2=216 after modifier and 30 . So the academy equals the value of a bulb by ~T179 if you do not put a value on the lost and
So in 35 turns the academy's value is about the same as using a GS on a bulb before Scientific Method.
However the Academy continues to help us tech useful techs like nationalism, chemistry and biology after we have finished Mass Media.
Conclusion
After all this analysis, I think the value of the academy is at least questionable. I'm happy if we...
1) use the GS for an academy (since if we are forced to use liberalism for something other than radio, having the academy will be very nice)
2) use the first GS from GPFarm for an astronomy bulb. (since that returns more value than getting Printing Press 5 turn earlier)
Plus I think an observatory build in washington might make sense, and getting galleons going earlier is nice too.