Alien Worlds graphics request

I do know that I'm asking much, but I guess asking doesn't hurt...

I'm developing ruleset "Alien World", or "alien" for short, for Freeciv ( http://www.freeciv.org/ ) My biggest problem is lack of graphics. I have no kind of talent for creating them, and taken nature of the project it's quite essential that I don't just reuse standard graphics. I have reused standard tileset while developing, and it's not only that nothing looks like it should, but it even affects playability.

"Alien World" is not just modification of default ruleset, but it's written from scratch. I'm not asking only a couple units to be added on top of standard ones, but everything is different. This includes terrains, resources (specials), units, techs, buildings, governments, bases...

It has actually been goal of the project that rules must be different from default ones. I want to provide players totally new experience. It's almost like you had two games when you sometimes play with default rules and sometimes with alien rules. Name "Alien World" does not refer to world where green men live, but to the fact that this world is very alien. If you have read "Stalker" by Strugatski brothers you may have an idea what I've been after.

So, I wonder if Scenario League with all its talent could somehow help me. I'd like to release ruleset under GPL, so preferably graphics should be made available under it.

Well, even if you cannot help me with graphics, maybe some of you will at least play with this ruleset once it matures a bit more. That would be great too.

Documentation about current rules is available at http://www.cazfi.net/freeciv/alien/

That's quite an ambitious project.
Creating all the graphics for a project such as this from scratch is a huge task.
What's wrong with the existing graphics?


A question out of context: Are you involved in the development of FreeCiv?

Months and months ago someone on the development made a "patch" where the max map size was increased a lot. (128.000 tiles (aprox. 350x350) the developer said.)
I never found out how to use the patch, I don't know either wether it will work and if it will be included in the next release. Do you have any idea how this works?

Ingvar VII said:

A question out of context: Are you involved in the development of FreeCiv?

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Yes. I hope this was not "wrong" answer in front of this audience.

That's why I had confidence to begin such an drastically different ruleset project from default one. If I hit some problem in freeciv engine while developing the ruleset, I can fix the engine myself.

Months and months ago someone on the development made a "patch" where the max map size was increased a lot. (128.000 tiles (aprox. 350x350) the developer said.)
I never found out how to use the patch, I don't know either wether it will work and if it will be included in the next release. Do you have any idea how this works?

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I guess you never were actual audience of the patch (How you got it? Maybe you were just requestor on some patch tracker ticket and got cc:d everything related to implementing that request). Our patches apply to source code, which you need to compile in order to get working binary program. That said patch (or at least some patch increasing max map size) has been applied to our version control (which you can consider master copy of source code) and it is part of freeciv 2.3. It is not in our next release, 2.2.5, which comes from older branch (S2_2) of source code, but it will be in 2.3.0 (from S2_3 branch)

There's document in progress about new features in 2.3 in http://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/NEWS-2.3.0

Ingvar VII said:

What's wrong with the existing graphics?

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By existing graphics you mean reusing default ones? A couple of examples from how I reuse graphics now: String of airbases does not quite catch the essence of tubes on ocean and Legion graphics does not make it too clear that unit is amphibious.

cazfi said:

Name "Alien World" does not refer to world where green men live, but to the fact that this world is very alien.

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Like so often, I need to clarify myself... While I like to think that primary meaning of word "alien" here is about how weird the world is, it's still true that this ruleset is set to the future in distant planet. Equivalent of "Warriors" in default ruleset is "Star Marines", there are alien lifeforms as units...

cazfi said:

Like so often, I need to clarify myself... While I like to think that primary meaning of word "alien" here is about how weird the world is, it's still true that this ruleset is set to the future in distant planet. Equivalent of "Warriors" in default ruleset is "Star Marines", there are alien lifeforms as units...

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So you mean something like the "Sci-fi" game in Test of time ?

cazfi said:

Yes. I hope this was not "wrong" answer in front of this audience.

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No problem: we're all well educated gentlemen!

even if I haven't (yet?) tried freeciv...

Strelok22 said:

So you mean something like the "Sci-fi" game in Test of time ?

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Err.. I have to admit I don't know what that would be like
Anyway, this increases my hopes a bit. Does existence of such a thing mean you have some sci-fi graphics resources that could be adjusted for use in alien?

If that helps, ruleset documentation I already mentioned ( http://www.cazfi.net/freeciv/alien/ ) lists all units, terrains, techs, buildings... Tech tree is not yet part of that documentation (but if you download freeciv 2.3.0-beta3 and development snapshot of the ruleset, you can check it in game)

cazfi said:

That said patch (or at least some patch increasing max map size) has been applied to our version control...

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Yay! I wanted to try to make a scenario for FreeCiv, or rather port one of the old masterpieces. My idea was to port either La belle Epoque or Imperialism 1870, with the main change being that there would be more nations available. (I would of course contact the creators of these fine scenarios to see what they thought of such an endeavour.)

FreeCiv however feels a bit bloated and slow, the interface is certainly not as "clean" as Civ 2(ToT included.)



Regarding graphics: If you do not have the time or talent to make them yourself your best bet would be to use existing graphics. There are some very, very good graphics around.

Ingvar VII said:

Yay! I wanted to try to make a scenario for FreeCiv, or rather port one of the old masterpieces

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We've had scripting system for several versions now, but no single scenario that uses it has been made. I'm not sure if nobody has really tried, or have all attempts simply failed so miserably that they have not been even announced.
It matters a lot to me personally that such custom content would be made for freeciv. So, if you need any kind of freeciv related support in your scenario project, let me know. Even if it turns out that scenario cannot be made, reasons for that are very valuable information for us. It's hard to improve our scenario creation support without knowing what limitations scenario authors hit in practice.

As I said I simply want to try to port one, the reason this stalled is that the map is too large. Until a new version offering the possiblity of maps over 33000 squares are possible I have nothing to add. I guess I might possibly pick another one but i donðt know which it should be.

A large part of the scenarios made for Civ2/ToT I think would not benefit much from a port to FreeCiv, since the only way FreeCiv is truly better than Civ2 is the larger amount of Civilizations possible. (This of course is only valid in a few instances I guess.)
Although I guess that can be a blessing and a curse. More Civs mean the game is harder to balance I guess.

Ingvar VII said:

Until a new version offering the possiblity of maps over 33000 squares are possible

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There is 2.3.0-beta3 already available if you can live with beta quality

Ok, where can I get it?

Edit: nevermind it's on the freeciv.org frontpage.

Ingvar VII said:

A large part of the scenarios made for Civ2/ToT I think would not benefit much from a port to FreeCiv, since the only way FreeCiv is truly better than Civ2 is the larger amount of Civilizations possible.

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I would assume that the fact that in freeciv we have full-fledged scripting language, instead of limited Macro language of Civ2/ToT, could improve scenarios significantly if taken advantage of.

Not that I myself would be completely convinced that having that scripting language is right way to go. While it does allow more complex things, it makes creation of simple cases harder.

I just got an crazy idea, and am not yet absolutely sure if it would be even possible to do, but... would it be useful if we implemented civ2-style macro language parser with our scripting language? Then scenario authors would have the choice of using scripting language directly with all its functionality available, or to use that macro-language wrapper on top of it with its limited functionality (and performance hit of yet another software layer)

Hi Cazfi,

I thought up a few issues I have with Freeciv scenario creation. Please don't take them as a slight against you or any of the other programmers. Just understand that they are born out of frustration.

The Basics:

Buy Civ II: MGE & Civ II ToT. Play Them - We drew up a list of events and triggers from Civ II for you guys a while ago and I don't think it really clicked. Have you played Civ II before? Have you tried to modify it? How many Civ II scenarios have you played? And no, small tweaks to the vanilla version of the game do not count.

Documentation is lacking - In order to create scenarios for Freeciv, without relearning everything by trial and error, we need instructions. An example: I want to create a new scenario and share it with my friends. What files can be edited and how do I organize them for easy distribution?

Standardization - All the mods and quasi scenarios I have seen vary wildly in implementation. Some mods use different files to run. Tilesets vary wildly. I don't know where to begin.

Incentive to Create - Why create a scenario in Freeciv when I can create one in Civ II? More civs? OK, great. Barring that improvement the game is harder to edit and modify than Civ II, and that's saying a lot.

No zoom function, only different tilesets - In Civ 2, in all its incarnations, you can zoom in and out. In Freeciv, if you want to get a closer look at the action between two units on two tiles you need to change your tileset. How are we supposed to do this? Redo our graphics and accompanying parameter files to simply make the tiles and graphics physically larger? Way too much work.

The editor is very basic - I applaud the fact that an in-game editor was created. Unfortunately it can do very little in the world of scenario creation. Scenarios, as we have come to know them, have custom maps of varying sizes and shapes. They have different graphics, sounds, custom civs, custom flags, you name it.

The average scenario creator does not know how to write computer code - Surprise. Make scenario creation as easy as possible.

Walk the Walk - I've heard that Freeciv can have unlimited units, unlimited cities, unlimited everything. Every attempt I have made at adding additional units, additional terrain, additional techs has failed. How, in basic language, do I do this?

Harry Tuttle said:

Please don't take them as a slight against you or any of the other programmers.

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As I said I'm thankful for any information like this. Though...

out of frustration.

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...you are not the only frustrated one.

Buy Civ II: MGE & Civ II ToT. Play Them

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We have a problem that they are Windows programs while I use Linux. I don't think wife would allow me to buy another computer just for installing Windows and civ2.

- We drew up a list of events and triggers from Civ II for you guys a while ago and I don't think it really clicked.

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Where is that list? I'll try to comment it on more detail.
Years ago I got document called Macro.txt from you guys. Thank you. As I went through it, it became apparent that freeciv already had equivalent functionality, or the functionality simply made no sense in freeciv context (as for forcing other players attitude - freeciv is fundamentally multiplayer game, the other player might be human)

In general I think we should accept that freeciv is not civ2. Trying to simply force civ2 scenario to freeciv is sure way to get frustrated. Instead you should take advantage of what freeciv has to offer.

Documentation is lacking - In order to create scenarios for Freeciv, without relearning everything by trial and error, we need instructions. An example: I want to create a new scenario and share it with my friends. What files can be edited and how do I organize them for easy distribution?

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Thanks for the example. I have thought our documentation to be at least adequate, but it indeed focus more to internals of the files to be modified than to meta issues. I'll see what I can do.

I have been working on utility called freeciv-modpack that should make installing side a lot easier. It downloads files from the Internet, so in order to distribute your mods with it you need a way to host files in the net. Documentation about how to setup your mod to be installable with freeciv-modpack should be finished by the time freeciv 2.3.0 is released.

Why create a scenario in Freeciv when I can create one in Civ II? More civs? OK, great.

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I wonder if you simply want different things than I do and civ2 is simply better suited for you. For me personally, big advantage of Freeciv is how you can create your own rules. Have you looked rules documentation of alien ruleset? Would scenario that uses such rules be possible in civ2?

No zoom function, only different tilesets

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It's good to know that this is important for you, but I cannot honestly promise improvements quickly.

Every attempt I have made at adding additional units, additional terrain, additional techs has failed.

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Would you kindly write a specification for a simple modification you want to do? We could then walk through the implementation.

I have been taking a look at this stuff now.

There are many different kinds of "topology". The one equivalent to the Civ 2 one seems to be isotrident.
(Note I say it seems to be, I´m not altogether sure.)

I open the map in data named isotrident, and find is has graphics that fit as such.
However there is no unit file, and I realize not all the graphics actually fit as being from that folder.
Some of the graphics in-game seem to come from the amplio2 folder.

and so my question is, if I create a scenario file, how will the file know which graphics to use?
Will it use the graphics in the folder the scenario file itself is in?

Having to work with many different folders is an immense drawback compared to Civ2.

I had 15mins to spare so I started drafting ruleset editing tutorial: http://www.cazfi.net/freeciv/RulesetExample.txt Is this going to useful direction?

There's four kind of data packages, and you probably need to create one of each for your scenario

- Ruleset:
Rules of the game. This is set of text files describing units, techs, buildings, terrains...

- Tileset:
Graphics. In addition to actual picture text files describing its structure are needed.

- Soundset
Like tileset, but for sounds instead of graphics

- Scenario
This is actually a save game with starting situation in game and possibly with some script code for events to happen during the game.

Reason these are separated is that user should have freedom to select them independently, and to avoid massive data duplication. Freeciv distribution itself contains several rulesets: civ1, civ2, default, experimental and multiplayer. All of these can use same default tileset. And the other way around you can use any of the tilesets amplio2 (default), trident, isotrident with them.
Of course there is dependencies between these data packages. One can use only tilesets that has graphics for all the units in current ruleset etc.

Our wiki should contain documentation about internals of each. I hear kids breaking things, so I have to go now...