SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

It only matters for the thread title in this subforum! I'm surprised you are agonising over it. Unless you have a very good reason to change it, I'm sticking with 'TNT thread'.

In the past we had Russian teams with names like CRC and CFR. I was able to deal with them by putting 'Team ' in front. But since one of the meanings for 'TNT' was stated to be 'The New Team', I couldn't really do that.
 
Keath said:
Updated:

TNT thread
TNT's thread
This is TNT!

Other choices anyone?

@AlanH -- This will only matter for the name on the Progress and Results page, right?
Click to expand...

It only matters for the thread title in this subforum! I'm surprised you are agonising over it. Unless you have a very good reason to change it, I'm sticking with 'TNT thread'.

In the past we had Russian teams with names like CRC and CFR. I was able to deal with them by putting 'Team ' in front. But since one of the meanings for 'TNT' was stated to be 'The New Team', I couldn't really do that.
Click to expand...
SO:

1. TNT Thread
2. TNT's thread
3. This is TNT!
4. Team TNT

How long do we have, Alan?
Please state your preference if you have one. I would be happy with 1 or 4.
 
Perleeese! I should have just done it instead of discussing it. Is it important?
 
Yes, leave it as it is. It is already more than good enough. After all our team name is still the same (simply 'TNT'). And I apologise for "fueling the fire". (Btw is that a correct English expression?)

About barbarian Galleys:

According to the article linked to above, the barbarians normal research rate is essensially 1/turn, but every turn they get free research equal to

Code: 
3%*(number of teams with tech)/(number of teams alive)

towards *any* tech, not just the one they are currently researching, and not restricted to the one they may research themselves. Here 'teams' does not include the barbarians themselves, thus it is 7 in our game. This means that their research towards Sailing will be 0 until

3 teams have the tech: then 1%
5 teams have the tech: then 2%
7 teams have the tech: then 3%

Implications:

a) Even if one AI starts with Sailing, the barbarians will not research towards it.
b) Since the AIs are given "rather more land", we can hope they will not prioritise Sailing as fast as we do. Furthermore, on Emperor the AI's will only get Archery and Hunting for free, and they will usually prioritise worker techs, religions and BW before Sailing, but not necessarily everything in that list.
c) This just increases the importance of early expansion, when it is still safe. Let's say by the time we have Alphabet, I would be surprised if not all AIs have Sailing (unless they have a lot more land available than we do.)

-jj-
 
justjohn said:
Yes, leave it as it is. It is already more than good enough. After all our team name is still the same (simply 'TNT'). And I apologise for "fueling the fire". (Btw is that a correct English expression?)

About barbarian Galleys:

According to the article linked to above, the barbarians normal research rate is essensially 1/turn, but every turn they get free research equal to

Code: 
3%*(number of teams with tech)/(number of teams alive)

towards *any* tech, not just the one they are currently researching, and not restricted to the one they may research themselves. Here 'teams' does not include the barbarians themselves, thus it is 7 in our game. This means that their research towards Sailing will be 0 until

3 teams have the tech: then 1%
5 teams have the tech: then 2%
7 teams have the tech: then 3%

Implications:

a) Even if one AI starts with Sailing, the barbarians will not research towards it.
b) Since the AIs are given "rather more land", we can hope they will not prioritise Sailing as fast as we do. Furthermore, on Emperor the AI's will only get Archery and Hunting for free, and they will usually prioritise worker techs, religions and BW before Sailing, but not necessarily everything in that list.
c) This just increases the importance of early expansion, when it is still safe. Let's say by the time we have Alphabet, I would be surprised if not all AIs have Sailing (unless they have a lot more land available than we do.)

-jj-[/QUOTE]

Yes, "fueling the fire" is a correct English expression but there is no fire. Just AlanH doing his usual thorough job and me, trying to keep everyone happy, aware and free to contribute. ;)

From yours and dima42's research it looks like we should be okay for the early turnsets but an extra galley along the way will be essential to protect our clams. We don't want any lousy barbarians spoiling our clam chowder.  :yumyum:  :eek:

Before all the votes are in or it becomes apparent that the PH is the way we go, is there anything we've overlooked? I would bet that fast expansion is the best play we can make so how many cities do we build before our research tanks and we become bogged down by city expenses? And if we are alone, isolated, will this opening be the best? I have this stinking feeling that this game will test our empire building and maybe test our skill with modern warfare....

We are charismatic/organized so we should have a good expansion chance and, of course, these traits are the preferred warmonger traits. Right, warmongers? :ninja:
Click to expand...
 
Oh, and another possibility is that we are surrounded by angry Coalition members who are prepared to gang up on us. I mean, we are in isolation because we are considered dangerous. Any other surprises we might encounter? :mischief:
 
Keath said:
Oh, and another possibility is that we are surrounded by angry Coalition members who are prepared to gang up on us. ...
Click to expand...
I say, just let em try, eh!? :trouble:
Click to expand...

Hehe, Keath making funny remarks to his own postings. :p

I have this stinking feeling that this game will test our empire building and maybe test our skill with modern warfare....
Click to expand...

You might very well be right. It might be very difficult to move a large army aroung the map, meaning not only that a war will take more time than usual, but also that it is preferable to have a more advanced army than just having a larger army. Until we have scouted more, we should keep it in mind that we might have to do a lot of researdh and therefore prioritise economy early on probably.

-jj-
 
Well I've got no more information to add at this point.. those of you who have done research seem to think that the SPH strategy is the best overall, so there seems to be an agreement with everyone who's actively researched it. I'm not sure we really need to wait for 'everyone' to chip in their two cents at this point as it's been the topic for 5 days now and if people haven't commented they either don't know or have no opinion. Personally as much as I want to contribute given the in depth research already done, me playing through would be rather pointless as I don't think about this game at that level.

So in my humble opinion I say we get this started and get that settler moving.
 
i kinda put a lot of effort into it, and tought SIP was best. BUT im a ready to go along with SPH! the results look also very good. If you wait just 4-5 hours more i post my screenies from the SIP--> fast xpand build..
but if YOU want to SPH, just go ahead. Playing 6-7 turns would realy get the momentum going again... and i realy think it is important we start to play. before the players get too inactive... we cannot be too afraid to not do the 100% best start! ofc we should be sloppy, but lets still have some fun ;)

for a benchmark, i can get orleans up by 2400BC with LH and 2 clams already netted (also worker out)
 
fizbankovi, I noticed you put quite a lot of effort into it. Therefore, I would be very happy if you would take the time to play through the SPH by dima and me. I attached a text file detailing the strategy a few posts back. You'll notice that Orleans is founded after 64 turns (which is 2400 BC), with the added bonus that it is on a different island! (Which gives better trade routes, and we have a Galley, thus closer to expanding even more.)

-jj-
 
justjohn said:
Hehe, Keath making funny remarks to his own postings. :p
-jj-
Click to expand...

It's lonely here on the west coast at 1:30 in the morning... Once we get into the game, I'll be alright. :lol:

I, too, would have bet that SIP was the best play when I first looked but I've played out jj's plan from post #143 and it works. Try as I may, I cannot do better, so nice work jj and dima!

@Windfury and the rest of the team patiently waiting, I just want to give everyone a chance to try this out and agree that this is the best play. A bungle at the beginning would be bad and if some players disagree with it but are too polite to speak up, we might hear the dreaded "I knew it!" or "I told you so!"

@fizbankovi - try running through those moves. If you have a play that is better by SIP, post the turnset so we can all see what you have.

Like I said and I know you all must agree: The opening moves can make or break the game.

Have a look at the Progress and Results page and check the Display format for SCORE, POWER and CULTURE graphs for the three teams who have posted. Have all three teams started out the same?
 
Settling on the hill has one extra feature that the other starts don’t share - the hill capitol allows our navy fast E - W access that the other sites don’t. This could save a lot of movement points over the course of the game. All else being equal, this tips the scale for me.

To the MM experts a few dumb questions:

Dumb question #1 When there’s 2 turns left on a build, it is often possible to MM to get that build in 1 turn. Is this always good play or rarely worth it?

Dumb question #2 Same for techs - often you can acquire some coin by reducing the slider to say 30% and get the tech the same turn. Is this dumb or sound play? Does the overflow go to the next tech?

Could someone explain how you capitalize on maximum hammer overflow?

@dima42 - nice work on Barb teching! :goodjob:
 
Keath said:
To the MM experts a few dumb questions:

Dumb question #1 When there’s 2 turns left on a build, it is often possible to MM to get that build in 1 turn. Is this always good play or rarely worth it?

Dumb question #2 Same for techs - often you can acquire some coin by reducing the slider to say 30% and get the tech the same turn. Is this dumb or sound play? Does the overflow go to the next tech?

Could someone explain how you capitalize on maximum hammer overflow?
Click to expand...

No questions are dumb :).

Depends on the impact of the build/research, but I think almost always worth it. For instance, there was a test game in which I MM'd BW to come a turn earlier by switching from working corn to working coast! (In the latest version we've put together, that's not necessary) This is a huge loss in food for a turn, but the hammers from the earlier Slavery more than make up for it.

Overflow works such that the thing you choose to research at the end of the following turn gets the overflow beakers.

Here's an example of hammer overflow usage:
*Suppose you want to produce a warrior, and your primary hammer source is whipping. Whipping a warrior by itself is generally a terrible idea because you get the 1 unhappy face, and only get 1 pop's worth of whipping out of it. However, by carefully whipping something else before it, you can whip at 1 population more, and get the overflow to build the warrior.
 
fizbankovi said:
i kinda put a lot of effort into it, and tought SIP was best. BUT im a ready to go along with SPH! the results look also very good. If you wait just 4-5 hours more i post my screenies from the SIP--> fast xpand build..
but if YOU want to SPH, just go ahead. Playing 6-7 turns would realy get the momentum going again... and i realy think it is important we start to play. before the players get too inactive... we cannot be too afraid to not do the 100% best start! ofc we should be sloppy, but lets still have some fun ;)

for a benchmark, i can get orleans up by 2400BC with LH and 2 clams already netted (also worker out)
Click to expand...

I actually really appreciate the benchmarks you set earlier in this thread, because they motivated me to do actual math and micro to try to beat it :). It would please me greatly if you got an even better start!
 
so here is my best try for a SIP i think. It is a good start.. i think.
 

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overflow is the sinlge msot important thing on high food sites:
there is a realy good gide on it here...

but a rough explanaton:

u get 45 hammer /pop on epic. if u whip something 46 hammer before comlition, 44 hammers of the 2nd pop goes to the build fo your chioce on the next turn:

build a worker to 44/90 and whip for 2 pop. u get an oveflow of at elast 45 hammers the next turn. (which u can even use for wonders, thus going around the penalty of lower hammer/pop into wonders.)

1 of the best exemples is axeman: build an axemen for 3-4 hammers for one turn, and whip on the next turn...

for u to try out:
set up our capitol in the SIP and put a globe theater/granery/and LH in it. (farm the corn)

play around with whiping... you will c how awseme it is.
 
fizbankovi said:
overflow is the sinlge msot important thing on high food sites:
there is a realy good gide on it here...
Click to expand...
Could you post the url?

but a rough explanaton:

u get 45 hammer /pop on epic. if u whip something 46 hammer before comlition, 44 hammers of the 2nd pop goes to the build fo your chioce on the next turn:

build a worker to 44/90 and whip for 2 pop. u get an oveflow of at elast 45 hammers the next turn. (which u can even use for wonders, thus going around the penalty of lower hammer/pop into wonders.)

1 of the best exemples is axeman: build an axemen for 3-4 hammers for one turn, and whip on the next turn...

for u to try out:
set up our capitol in the SIP and put a globe theater/granery/and LH in it. (farm the corn)

play around with whiping... you will c how awseme it is.
Click to expand...
This is definitely worth checking out - is this the classic settler/worker pump?

SIP compared to PH with both cities size 6 and having mined tiles, farmed corn and lh, (granary?):

SIP - raw food/production/commerce - 23f/8p/7c - working clamsx3, farmed corn, mined PH and island mined grass hill. (assuming a worker ferried to island.) excess food - 11 excess food/turn = 11f/8p/7c

PH - 21f/9p/5c -working clamx2, farmed corn, mined ghx2, grass forest. = 9f/9p/5c

Therefore - plus 2 food and 2 commerce for SIP but -1 hammer.

How quickly can each city achieve this? Need a galley for worker move with SIP but not for PH. The Globe Theatre would make this settler/worker pump scream. What are the long term advantages? :deadhorse:

@dima - Better to ask a dumb question than to remain dumb. But I agree there are no dumb questions. I put it this way because new players are often intimidated about asking questions or stating their thoughts.

We haven't heard from cottagechris and it would be great to hear everyone's comments on this key set of turns.
 
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