BACKSTAB or WAIT?

This is the Persian Deity Challenge in the series (#3 I think).

I've watched alot of LPs and read my share of info on this site and I almost never see anyone backstab a friend. The usual play is to wait till the declaration is up to go to war. I find myself in a situation where I have to wait 25-26 turns for my pact to dissolve. I plan on trying to take over the world anyway so I wonder if it might be better to just get on with this war and have the whole world hate me or not? I had some early trouble losing some units in my war with Japan because I just move as fast as I can without really thinking lol. It took a good while so Im behind on most benchmarks. I had Education on turn 138 which is the latest turn time for me yet to date.

Anyway I have about 10 Xbows and some other troops. I did manage to get Machu Pichu which really boosted my gpt. I went Full Liberty and 1 into Commerce instead of Honor. Im sure at this moment I can roll my best friend Dido and have control of my continent and I think the sooner the better since it looks like France is getting almost every wonder. I just put France to war with Poland and it seems that Greece is out of the game very early. The Hawaiians hate me already for taking two caps but Dido is almost all green mods except for one where I demanded tribute from one of her CS's. Poland and France are all green for now.

Im just looking for all of your nice and mean comments. Basically wondering what you all would do. Id really like some feedback from the strong deity players and we all know who you are but Id like to hear from anyone and everyone. Thanks and I hope to finish this game soon. Im thinking, war with the backstab, to make it harder and more fun, but it is a very tough choice for me really!

I know some of you like to actually go in the game and look around and see how bad I have things set up lol so I put the save file here too on turn 151. Although I have all DLC map packs and they are not disabled so you know if you don't have that Im pretty sure this file won't work for you.

Edit: I was thinking I guess I could play it out from both angles for a learning experience but I usually only like to play it out once for more pressure.

Go for it. I hope your trade routes dont get plundered.
Looks like your already war mongering and have captured some cities, so you are probably on everyone' list anyways.
Also, if there are other Civs you have not met, I dont think they will care about your backstab, but then I am not sure. Maybe you can still make another friend somehow...

I would just do it and be prepared for the never ending wars that will follow.

Stop loosing units, your about to need them

At 800 AD I think the 40+ defenses are too strong for you now. Maybe not if you were in a GA and had 3 move trebs. If you take Carthage, surely you have it won.

I'm not the best, but IMO the backstab is worth it if it puts you in a winning position.

Although it carries a worse diplomatic penalty, in one sense the dilemma you face is actually no different from a DoW without friendship.

Think of it this way, if you don't (or can't, because the AIs aren't 'playing ball') use diplo to make everyone hate your victim (generally by bribing the victim to DoW others), everyone will severely judge you for DoW-ing them 'cold', so to speak.

So you should try to do what you should always try to do, and get people to hate the victim. If you can't, then backstab them, for sure. Domination victories are all about timing, and while a diplomatic standing will recover in time, the window for having an effective army on Deity can be very short. Sometimes your Xbows will only be effective for 10 turns, if things are moving fast in the rest of the world.

I generally find that the AI hates me more for city capture anyway, and unless you get a really easy map where you can build roads and capital snipe without having to go through expos, then you're gonna have to raze or puppet on your way to the prized capitals.

So my advice is: get used to being hated.

Order of priority for Deity domination, IMHO (humble being the operative word since I'm really an Immortal player who happens to play Deity 90% of the time because I enjoy it more):-

1. An army with an edge, in size, modernity, and experience.
2. An economy to back up 1.
3. Happiness to back up 1. and 2.
4. Diplomacy to support 2. and 3. by way of trade.
5. Diplomacy to prevent DoWs.

At the end of the day, if 1-3 are strong enough, the AI will seldom DoW you because you have a huge, modern army, and even if they do, because of covetousness and/or sheer hatred, you can destroy them with a quickly-assembled National Guard. It's easier said than done, but I'd say it's easier to take your 'slot' and attempt a clean sweep than a protracted battle of attrition where, in all honesty, playing the long-con diplo game isn't simple either.

On a side note, but related, have you tried sweeping your continent before the AIs from the other continent find you? Not in this game, since you have Polynesia to factor in, but in general I mean?

Everyone will know if you backstab dido, so don't do it. This is Dido so she will backstab you at some point, just give her an incentive to do so like stealing her your land land with a GG.

Playing friendly is wonderful and gets you nowhere often. Dido is a backstabber. I will never forgive my first experience with her, she came on while I'm in the middle of a War with Brazil, fighting up to my ears and she hammers my Science/Production City behind a mountain range just to laugh at me. I reloaded just to stop her but lost my stomach for the game. Burn her while you got the Army that can

Dido looks weak. Utique looks easy to take with all that flat land, and carthage doesnt lok much stronger. the City strength is a bit high, but I would try it anyways if you can kill her few units first. Do you have range +1 or Logistics on any of those XB ? anyways, I think its entirely do-able with a couple of meat shields soaking up the city defenses.

Thanks for all the comments so far!! I really enjoy hearing both sides. I decided to just backstab her for something different. I've actually never done that in any Civ games for the past few years. Every time I seen someone play they always wait for the DOF to expire. I love that strategy of trying to get her to backstab me lol!! Thats good advice but I figure I didn't have alot of time to wait for that and her army was very weak from wars already. I Razed the Expo and took Carthage in 15 turns but even at turn 201 Im 15% behind France. He is a tech monster this game. It is nice to see an AI getting far ahead in tech in my BNW game because that is usually not the case anymore. Im about 20 turns from labs, I think if I can get these labs up in a hurry I can overtake his lead maybe! I have him at constant war with Hawaii and Poland, but I don't think it is slowing his tech rate down. It looks like Poland stomped Alex and Im not sure what is going on in the war with France. I don't like Cont Maps lol and it shows! Ill get a pic from turn 201 and post it up for you all

@Consentient:

Oh yes I've tried to wipe out my Cont many times but usually I end up meeting a Civ from the other side before I get that done. I have seen many people do this with no trouble but I seem to lack the skill to get all the cities before meeting other Civs. I know speed is key in this but I think I spend a little too much time XP farming the CS's so I'll have to try to get better at that!

@JesiusNapoleo

You were correct... I really didn't get as much hate as I thought. Ofcourse what made Poland denounce me was taking control of his CS's lol... that put him over the edge. Everyone pretty much hates me now but if I can somehow stop or catch up to France it is game over. I seen Battleships over there at turn 201 and I have no navy at all now and his cap is inland so Im hoping for Nukes/Stealth/Xcoms to take all 3 Caps in one turn but that is a long way off

In this pic you can see good old Hawaii invaded and settled. I had 2 workers over there watching and somehow I missed the settler or I would of DOWed them. I'll just let him have that spot for now. You can also see my gold mining operation beside Carthage (Pillage/Repair in open land). Is that an exploit?? Absolutely lol, Im kinda desperate right now and the xtra 50gpt is paying for my CS's! Also you can see how horrible my population is but you know thats what liberty sometimes gets you rather than tradition. I am a little more worried about my production. I don't have alot of hills for mines but Im hoping these plains hexes will kick in down the road.

Since this is part of the Deity Challenge Series you can see the rest of the game on that thread. I started this thread to get opinions and statistics and strategies on Backstabbing your DOFs since I do not see alot of info on that.

EDIT: Up to turn 241 now and I took the tech lead at 75%, strange though Poland smashed France but has no techs to steal and France was the tech runaway. I guess Poland had a huge air force and crushed him.

Edit:Game/Set/Match... I used some turtle play to win Diplo VC on turn 259. You can read all about it on the Deity Challenge Thread #3 Persia if interested.

WARNING: This map/spoiler could spoil your game for the #12 DCL Maya so do not open if you have not played that game yet and intend to.

If you plan to go domination, then by all means backstab, plus it seems like the DCL for Persia is with a bunch of AIs on high deception. By domination I mean rolling over the entire terrain and using frigates/battleships for the other continent, not the nuke+blitz XCOM strat. In those situations, maintaining relations with guys on the other continent are good. I don't think the backstab penalty is nearly as bad as the one you'd get eventually for taking capitals.

Otherwise, if you're just looking to beat down the AI and go for another VC, then I'd rather not backstab. But in the late game people are gonna hate you for different ideologies regardless. But I'd still go to war, 3 move cannons/artillery are just too good. So if you're gonna benefit from the AIs wonders, by all means go take them. (FP, chichen itza, sistine etc.)

@ Sessy

Does anyone know how the warmongering penalty for wiping out a civ works? Is it 1) a prerequisite that the other AIs have met the civ that is wiped out, or 2) only a prerequisite that they have met you?

The best answer I can think of is that you shouldn't make friends with people you might want to attack. That usually means people very close to you. Is this a non-standard speed game?

Regardless, I don't think backstabbing is worth it pretty much ever except very late in the game when you have a solid hold on victory and cant get maced by ideologies/world congress. The much better way to do it early is not make friends with people at all unless they aren't going to become a target (too far away, etc).

Civs really don't care very much about a Declaration of War. But a backstab is likely to earn you multiple denouncements. I just never think its worth it.

Dido is a backstabbing witch herself so if you are lucky she might backstab you. But usually I deal with her by waiting for her to declare friendship with someone else, then bribe her to war. Then no one cares when I wipe the floor with her.