Liberty Domination Walkthrough

Moriarte,

First of all, thank you for this amazing guide. Watching your videos has helped me improved my Deity playing a lot. I have one question for you (and everyone), though. Do you think that these "benchmarks" you hit and show in your screenshots of how a Liberty empire looks like on turn 100, 150, 200, etc. have changed with the latest patch? It seems like the AI produces more units now, which means it takes a longer time to chew through them even with an artillery rush. Also, the hit for taking cities is much bigger now and you can easily lose friends, therefore, trade partners.

What's yours and everyone's opinion on this?

You're welcome. Lately i've played few games without rationalism. Went straight into fight with CB's or XB's and then finished the commerce tree (protectionism is awesome and world's fair makes it arrive rather early). The civ i played with was Zulu, but still, it worked pretty consistently, so, should be doable with any other civ. Of course, in games like these your science will be terrible. Still, i managed to get up to 500+ beakers by turn 200 and was only few % behind the leader on the turn of victory.

So, no, i don't think benchmarks have changed. You can get away with much less early science than you saw in my LP's. As to trading partners, i gave up establishing "profitable routes" with civilizations after turn 150 and try to focus on home grown gold and routes to city states. You can also waste your GE on Machu, if you feel the gold is scarce. It's nicely placed in the tech tree, on the way to crossbows.

Nice read and your videos are good as well.

When you steal another civ's worker, does that impact your trading for the rest of the game? I assume if you steal the worker before you've met other Civs, there won't be diplo hits?

Do you think this approach could be adapted to work well with Venice? It seems like they have good synergy with domination play, but I'm not sure how to make good use of their unique puppet rules to take advantage of it, and I'm not sure whether a Liberty approach like this is the best way to go about it.

I think tradition is better for Venice. With super vertical cap benefitting from tradition bonuses and caravans/cargo ships there is no real good reason to go liberty for just 3 cities. Then again, if you (however unlikely) engage in early war and keep pushing for domination non - stop, that could work. I am not sure, it needs testing, but intuitively, i'd go tradition.

yanner39 said:

Nice read and your videos are good as well.

When you steal another civ's worker, does that impact your trading for the rest of the game? I assume if you steal the worker before you've met other Civs, there won't be diplo hits?

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Yes, there is no diplo hit if you steal a worker and then meet a civ. Stealing a worker before turn 20 is definitely a minor diplo hit, as the penalty seem to fade pretty quickly, even if you met few others already.

Thanks, that's my intuition too regarding Venice. I'm just looking for ideas for what to do with them besides hanging on, buying a bunch of allies, and aiming for DV. I had a decent Venice game going last night, but I got stuck on a map with Austria and very few city states left after she and I got done with them. Domination seemed to be the way to go there, but it was way too late for it by the time I got around to it, so I'm thinking I need to start thinking about the warmongering earlier.

The perfect scenario would be on a water map. 2 cities, philosophy, compass by turn 95 or something, then start taking those capitals with venetian great galleass. Upgrade to Frigates, eventually. I think that should work even on deity, provided, of course, there is access to coastal cities.

Moriarte said:

The perfect scenario would be on a water map. 2 cities, philosophy, compass by turn 95 or something, then start taking those capitals with venetian great galleass. Upgrade to Frigates, eventually. I think that should work even on deity, provided, of course, there is access to coastal cities.

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To clarify, this would have to be something like archipelago. Great galleasses can not enter deep water outside friendly territory, waiting for frigates on a deep water map will be too long

joshua43214 said:

To clarify, this would have to be something like archipelago. Great galleasses can not enter deep water outside friendly territory, waiting for frigates on a deep water map will be too long

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I think it's perfectly fine for continents actually. You can easily have Frigates by turn 130, and that's early enough to strike out for the other continent. Especially if you're upgrading heavily promoted a great galleass by then. In fact, it's perfect timing. It's hard to wipe out an entire continent before t130 anyway with naval attacks, because sometimes not every capital is coastal on your continent. Plus, if you pull it off right you have a clean slate with no warmonger hate because you've already DoW'd everyone on your continent prior to meeting the other one. ;-)

However, this would be way easier with Polynesia. The problem with Great Galleas is that often you can only get two into firing range on the first turn you attack. (Because the third one loses all of its movement passing the city)

Kamehameha can move 4 Galleas and 2 trireme into range and fire all in one turn because they can all come in from deep water. You can pick off units before you even take a shot from the city... harder to pull off with anyone else.

In general though, a GG rush is less effective than a Frigate rush because you can't upgrade them all in one turn from an existing unit. You have to wait until you have the tech and *then* start building them. If you're lucky you can afford to buy two up front. Basically by the time you attack you've already got Astronomy, so by then the deep water issue is moot. but that's also the big problem. You're not attacking until the advantage is slightly lost.

BWS said:

Thanks, that's my intuition too regarding Venice. I'm just looking for ideas for what to do with them besides hanging on, buying a bunch of allies, and aiming for DV. I had a decent Venice game going last night, but I got stuck on a map with Austria and very few city states left after she and I got done with them. Domination seemed to be the way to go there, but it was way too late for it by the time I got around to it, so I'm thinking I need to start thinking about the warmongering earlier.

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My favorite way to attack with Venice/Austria is to (right before I DoW) puppet a CS Ally of theirs stationed right behind their capital so I can execute a pincer attack. It works even better with Venice because you can purchase in that city. With Commerce, you can spam landsknechts immediately out of your newly acquired city. And Venice has the money to pull that off.

I could use some tips for implementing this strategy with Shoshone. So far I've been making some good progress but haven't been entirely successful yet. The two things giving me the most trouble have been getting bogged down in difficult worker steals or AI attacks.

I had a lot of luck in my first attempt: strong desert start, very quick Desert Folklore, very easy double worker steal from my first AI contact, fast Petra from Liberty finisher, plenty of hammers to hard build Pyramids and NC. Unfortunately, I accidentally cornered Suleiman, who caught me with a sneak attack despite DoF. Difficult terrain helped on defense but ultimately dragged out the fight too long, and he eventually overwhelmed my border cities.

Specific areas of concern (some general, some Shoshone only):

Worker stealing. I have been trying to steal two workers from the first AI that I meet, to minimize warmonger penalties. However, I often get bogged down in trying to get the workers, delaying my infrastructure and tying up a valuable Pathfinder. Is there anything I can do to make this easier? Should I be taking a different approach?

Build order. I have been opening with Pathfinder, Monument, Pathfinder, Granary and skipping the Shrine. I find that I get a quick pantheon from scouting in the vast majority of games. I'm wondering whether I should also delay the Monument because it's so easy to open Liberty via scouting.

Tech order. How strict is the Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Archery opening? Should I research Mining earlier if I settle on a mining luxury? Where should I fit in techs like Calendar, Sailing, and Bronze Working for plantation, coastal, and jungle starts?

Ancient ruins. What do you recommend for Pathfinder ruins? The Shoshone guide recommends population, culture, upgrade, population, tech, upgrade (with faith as soon as possible). However, that's for a Tradition strategy. For Liberty, I'm thinking that culture, population, tech, culture, population might be a better start. Opinions?

BWS said:

I could use some tips for implementing this strategy with Shoshone. So far I've been making some good progress but haven't been entirely successful yet. The two things giving me the most trouble have been getting bogged down in difficult worker steals or AI attacks.

I had a lot of luck in my first attempt: strong desert start, very quick Desert Folklore, very easy double worker steal from my first AI contact, fast Petra from Liberty finisher, plenty of hammers to hard build Pyramids and NC. Unfortunately, I accidentally cornered Suleiman, who caught me with a sneak attack despite DoF. Difficult terrain helped on defense but ultimately dragged out the fight too long, and he eventually overwhelmed my border cities.

Specific areas of concern (some general, some Shoshone only):

Worker stealing. I have been trying to steal two workers from the first AI that I meet, to minimize warmonger penalties. However, I often get bogged down in trying to get the workers, delaying my infrastructure and tying up a valuable Pathfinder. Is there anything I can do to make this easier? Should I be taking a different approach?

Build order. I have been opening with Pathfinder, Monument, Pathfinder, Granary and skipping the Shrine. I find that I get a quick pantheon from scouting in the vast majority of games. I'm wondering whether I should also delay the Monument because it's so easy to open Liberty via scouting.

Tech order. How strict is the Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Archery opening? Should I research Mining earlier if I settle on a mining luxury? Where should I fit in techs like Calendar, Sailing, and Bronze Working for plantation, coastal, and jungle starts?

Ancient ruins. What do you recommend for Pathfinder ruins? The Shoshone guide recommends population, culture, upgrade, population, tech, upgrade (with faith as soon as possible). However, that's for a Tradition strategy. For Liberty, I'm thinking that culture, population, tech, culture, population might be a better start. Opinions?

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Provided it's a good production map, you can always hard build it, by throwing the shrine out. Scout, monument, scout, worker, granary, archer, archer, settlers. Can save up gold from scouting as well. Or in your example of settling on top of gold, do research pottery, mining, archery, AH and sell your gold for 7 gpt to the first guy you meet.

There is room to switch tech order, indeed. The goal is to have pottery by turn 18 - 25 (depending on whether you go for hard built worker or not) and archery before turn 30, so you can rush/build 1-3 archers. Low production and nothing to sell? - Prioritize animal husbandry and bronze working. Choices, choices..

Don't delay monument though. You might need GE for NC in one of these games and delaying monument delays full liberty.

As to Shoshone, i'd do pop. - culture still. Population is the most powerful perk, especially with liberty, where population suffers.

Thanks for the tips. Regarding Shoshone scouting: I've sometimes had trouble with happiness from the rapid expansion, which is why I was considering emphasizing culture ruins instead of population ruins, in which case I figured I could get away with building both pathfinders before the monument.

What's your opinion on popping multiple culture ruins instead of just one? Or popping tech before upgrading pathfinders to composite bowmen? I was thinking that population, culture, technology, population, culture, upgrade might work well for this strategy. Hm, guess I can try it out and see how it works.

Also interested in what Caboose has to say about the Shoshone.

Never pop multiple culture ruins. The return is greatly diminished. When you get the first one, you're at 1cpt, so it saves *20* turns. When you get the second, you're either at 3 or 6 cpt, so it saves 3-5 turns. Whereas, a free tech or population at that point can save 10+ turns.

Happiness is resolved by worker-stealing and improving luxuries. Growth is absolutely the way to go. First, take a culture ruin. Then a free tech. After you hit pop 2, take a free pop. then take a CB upgrade. After that, if it's t20+, take a faith ruin period. Otherwise, take a free pop as soon as you can, or a free tech if you can't. Try to time your second free pop to get you from size 4-5 if possible.

Worker-stealing: You have to be thinking about this all the time as you explore. take the time to explore around your nearest AI neighbor's cities until you see a spot you can jump into and move back out from quickly, preferably *from out of view*. The AI can't see you on a hill behind a hill if their cultural boundaries don't contain that hill. Alternatively, stand behind a forest. Not as effective, because you can't see the worker come out. Third choice is to stand 2 tiles away on flat land, and hope they send a worker out to the boundary. Always ensure that *the worker* can move two tiles the turn after you capture it. If not, it will get recaptured.

Basically, you just need to remember that the AI will protect workers with warriors or keep them away from your units if you have one standing near the boundary. (Usually) So, it's all about surprising them. Sometimes you just get lucky and they move a worker into range on turn 6 right when you first encounter them. This is of course ideal, but if it doesn't happen, I stick around until I get the steal.

Not everyone will agree with this, but I always build an extra pathfinder, *because it's cheaper than building a worker*. This ensures that I get my scouting *and* my worker steals.

If you can't find a juicy AI to steal from, steal from a CS around t20 (on Deity, t25+ on Immortal), and come back ten turns later to steal another. (Without making peace)

Same thing applies to the AI. Steal multiple workers before making peace.

Also, I don't use the PF I upgrade to a CB for worker steals. PF are strength 8, CB are strength 7, and you can't risk them dying. If you get unlucky, the AI will get 3+ hits on you the turn you steal, and that will kill a CB, but not a PF.

Yes, this impedes general scouting, but it really has to be your first priority. IMHO.

BWS said:

Tech order. How strict is the Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Archery opening? Should I research Mining earlier if I settle on a mining luxury? Where should I fit in techs like Calendar, Sailing, and Bronze Working for plantation, coastal, and jungle starts?

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Moriarte said:

There is room to switch tech order, indeed. The goal is to have pottery by turn 18 - 25 (depending on whether you go for hard built worker or not) and archery before turn 30, so you can rush/build 1-3 archers. Low production and nothing to sell? - Prioritize animal husbandry and bronze working. Choices, choices..

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Might be just me & my gut feeling but unless I'm starting on desert/tundra ie in a place where a relevant faith giving pantheon is available and I want a shrine asap I always tech AH before pottery. AH is more useful in advance so to speak than pottery but moreover pottery from a ruin seems to be far more common than AH so I'm also trying to minimize the wasted teching turns.
Other than that the surroundings usually dictates the teching order. Sailing without the need of work boats comes when I have the hammers to build the 2nd caravan.

Cromagnus said:

Growth is absolutely the way to go. First, take a culture ruin. Then a free tech. After you hit pop 2, take a free pop. then take a CB upgrade. After that, if it's t20+, take a faith ruin period. Otherwise, take a free pop as soon as you can, or a free tech if you can't. Try to time your second free pop to get you from size 4-5 if possible.

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If you wait until the 3rd ruin for population, you can't take it again until the 6th ruin, and that's too late in my experience to time it. You might not even see 6 ruins in early scouting. I think population, culture, technology is probably the best order for Liberty. That first population ruin often lets you work a bonus food tile + hammers to speed up your Pathfinder and Monument builds.

Your other advice sounds solid though – thanks!

BWS said:

If you wait until the 3rd ruin for population, you can't take it again until the 6th ruin, and that's too late in my experience to time it. You might not even see 6 ruins in early scouting. I think population, culture, technology is probably the best order for Liberty. That first population ruin often lets you work a bonus food tile + hammers to speed up your Pathfinder and Monument builds.

Your other advice sounds solid though – thanks!

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I see your point, but, here's how I think of it. pop1-pop2 is between 5-8 turns. If you have a 3-food tile to start (which you almost always do as Shoshone) then you're at pop 2 on turn 5. If you take growth on turn 2, you've saved 3 turns. This makes it a waste.

So, I either take population right after I hit pop2, and hope I get another, or I wait until pop3 to take population.

My three possible orders are:

1) culture->growth->tech->CB upgrade->growth->tech

2) tech->culture->growth->tech->CB upgrade->growth

In both cases I replace #5 or #6 with faith depending on what turn I get the ruin.

This does mean I don't get a second growth ruin unless I get 5 ruins, yes.

Other notes:

* If I find a ruin on t18 or 19, I wait until t20 to claim it to ensure I get faith.

* Sometimes I'll ignore the ruin closest to my capital until my second pathfinder spawns, if it's in a spot where I'd see the AI coming before they got it, so I can keep it around as an ideally timed growth or faith ruin.

* Speaking of ideally timed growth ruins... I'll wait a turn or two to claim a ruin if my city is about to grow.

If you have really good production tiles to work, (like multiple 2hammer3gold gem mines) it can be worthwhile to stagnate at pop3 and build a settler, and rely on a ruin to get you to pop4. The ruins leave you at the same overflow amount, which, after growth, is a much smaller percentage of stored food needed to grow. Plus, you typically don't have enough 3-food tiles to keep the momentum going.

Thus, a growth ruin halfway through growing typically leaves you much farther from the next growth than where you started. (halfway through pop2 might turn into 1/4 of the way through pop3)

So, by stagnating and relying on a growth ruin to get to pop4, you get a settler out super-early without significantly affecting growth. (IMHO)

But, this heavily relies on a ruin to get you from pop3-pop4. Which is why it can be worth saving one. If you get lucky and don't need it for growth, you can spend it on faith.

I even consider buying a pathfinder if I get enough CS gold early. (build one, buy one for a total of 3) Normally it's not worth it, but every ruin you find with Shoshone is worthwhile. Considering that you can get extra free techs, or multiple CBs, it's *totally worth it*. Would you spend 220g on a CB? Heck yes you would.

Lots of fun ways to tweak the Shoshone start. It's flat out OP if you work it really hard. Having two CBs 40 turns early is... yeah.

Grendeldef said:

Might be just me & my gut feeling but unless I'm starting on desert/tundra ie in a place where a relevant faith giving pantheon is available and I want a shrine asap I always tech AH before pottery. AH is more useful in advance so to speak than pottery but moreover pottery from a ruin seems to be far more common than AH so I'm also trying to minimize the wasted teching turns.
Other than that the surroundings usually dictates the teching order. Sailing without the need of work boats comes when I have the hammers to build the 2nd caravan.

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I concede that in some cases it's not worth going after a shrine. But if your start has bananas, wheat or deer, I want a granary ASAP, so I won't delay Pottery for AH. Plus, the more subtle benefit to a granary is that it allows you to lock (at least) one extra tile on production in the early game to finish the pyramids faster. The value in this is non-trivial. So, in a game where I'm trying to beat the AI to the pyramids on Deity, and thus need to get the Pyramids by turn 40, I might go Pottery/Mining/Masonry instead of Mining/Masonry. The only problem with this is that you don't get Masonry until turn 30, so you're relying on chop to get you the pyramids by turn 40.

I have no idea how other people are pulling off t40 Pyramids and going for Archery before Masonry, unless they just restart if they don't get a tech ruin.

I'm finally bringing schools, factories, and artillery online in my current game. I'm running a little behind the timeline in the guide but catching up, currently 5th in tech. Need to pick my first victim and my ideology soon.

This has been an interesting map. My capital is just south of dead center with two cities on the south coast and one to the north in a mountain/jungle chokepoint. Going clockwise around the coast are Persia (western neighbor), Russia, China, the Netherlands, India (northern neighbor), Byzantium, and the Incas (eastern neighbor). Early game, everyone belonged to a loose web of DoFs except for Darius and Pachacuti, who were stubbornly neutral – won't make friends, won't take bribes, and too strong to bribe somebody else into fighting them. Mid-game, Wu Zetian went rogue, which made a mess out of the informal alliance as almost everyone was suddenly friends with an enemy. On the bright side, Wu's treachery led to Pachacuti finally taking sides and DoFing me.

Theodora chose Order, Pachacuti Autocracy, and William Freedom. Pachacuti is military and ideological leader, and I have a DoF + non-aggression pact with him, so I'm thinking I should adopt Autocracy. Darius is in the tech basement and has no friends, plus he's in between me and China, so he looks like the best target.