"Stealing" Indonesia's UA is not working anymore?

I did read someone in a topic about Indonesia saying that, playing as another civ, it is possible to found a city (obviously on a continent different form the one Indonesia started), gift it to Gajah Mada and that will make it become a "Spicer Island" city, ripe for the taking.

Is this really true, or at least was at some point?

Because I started a game this week as Netherlands, and as soon as I met Indonesia, I gifted one of my coastal cities (not the same continent where he started) to test this, and the city got no spices. I'm sure he did not found 3 spice islands somewhere else because he only has Jakarta, Surabaya and Medan (none of them has spices).

Maybe I should found the city after meeting him? Or did the famous Fall Patch remove this possibility?

Or actually was it never possible?

A hunch : this was probably made so that Indonesia has to found the city.

Oh man... they're always so bad at choosing a spot for that...

Wish they were as good as Pocatello at that, every game a play with him in, he settles some far islands exactly like I would!


Anyway, thanks for the hunch; a straight confirmation or denial would be optimal, though... so I hope this thread gets more posts

Makenshi said:

Wish they were as good as Pocatello at that, every game a play with him in, he settles some far islands exactly like I would!

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There's nothing about the settler code specific to him or any other civ. You can in fact see the same output it's considering by turning on its suggestions on where the found a city.

So you could make a mod that gave Indonesia Pocatello's ability to start with several extra tiles and you'll probably be really happy with their settlement pattern.

joncnunn said:

There's nothing about the settler code specific to him or any other civ. You can in fact see the same output it's considering by turning on its suggestions on where the found a city.

So you could make a mod that gave Indonesia Pocatello's ability to start with several extra tiles and you'll probably be really happy with their settlement pattern.

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Thank you for the input, maybe it was just concidence that he settled good and Gajah settled bad in previous games. But let us forget this part, for it is kinda off-topic.

My true doubts and concerns are about the possibility or not of planting a city, giving it to Indonesia and than taking it back by force: does this procedure result in stealing his "spices", or at least did at some point (maybe before the patch)? Or is he planting a city himself the only way to make the "spices" avaliable?

UA: "the first three cities founded on continents other than where Indonesia started..."

It looks to me like Indonesia has to self found the cities to get the luxes unfortunately. Selling a city to him and then taking it back seems a bit exploit-y anyway.

joncnunn said:

There's nothing about the settler code specific to him or any other civ. You can in fact see the same output it's considering by turning on its suggestions on where the found a city.

So you could make a mod that gave Indonesia Pocatello's ability to start with several extra tiles and you'll probably be really happy with their settlement pattern.

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But there is settler specific code. At least they increased Natural Wonder favor for Spain's settlers.

BlackWizard said:

But there is settler specific code. At least they increased Natural Wonder favor for Spain's settlers.

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Yes, Spain's code remembers to multiple the natural wonder yield by 2 so that it gives it the real value to Spain.

And the code actually does know when the Indonesian resource would appear and so adds that value in.

These are both simply minor corrections so that it gives the post founding values though.

If the code identifies every other-landmass location as having an extra 2 lux resources for Indonesia, that could explain some of his bad settlement locations. I'd settle some otherwise pretty bad locations for 2 new luxuries (I assume he'll settle in range of AT LEAST one new lux by valuing those resources and settling on a different landmass) and a double copy of one.

Almost anything but flat desert can look really nice if the code says 2 copies of a new lux are there! It could, I suppose, lead him to found new cities based on the UA luxuries rather than aim for, say, a spot a little further away that has an extra lux.

Indonesia has to be the founder, theres no excuses. Gifting from other civilizations cities will not work. I mean there are usually enough luxuries around, i wont know why you would use all that extra happiness from spices.

joncnunn said:

And the code actually does know when the Indonesian resource would appear and so adds that value in.

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Are you sure about that? I have been playing BNW only with BNW civs (so Indonesia is in all my games) and they seem very reluctant to settle off-continent. My games have all been using the continents-plus script, so every game has offered good opportunities for them.

My clear impression, but not having looked at any code, is that the Indonesian AI has no idea about their UA. I mean, two extra luxes is pretty strong! And that's not counting the extra value that comes with having a monopoly. I know there is an expansion flavor for the AI personalities, but is there an aspect to that (or another flavor) that influences willingness to settle further away (and thus perhaps off-continent)?

As to OP, Indonesia definitely has to found the city. Indonesia conquering a city off-continent does not generate the luxes. I can't imagine gifting a city would work. I have had a game where a CS conquered an early Indonesian city. That was kind of neat because the city could not be razed and making the CS my ally meant that I got the spice (but not the copy to trade).

beetle said:

Are you sure about that? I have been playing BNW only with BNW civs (so Indonesia is in all my games) and they seem very reluctant to settle off-continent. My games have all been using the continents-plus script, so every game has offered good opportunities for them.

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It's right in the BNW fall patch notes that it says that Indonesia more willing to found cities on other landmasses if it hasn't used up all its UA yet.

Indonesia isn't reluctant to found overseas at all in my games.

Their expansion flavor though was NOT changed, so their likelihood of building a settler at all wasn't changed.

Thanks for the authoritative citation joncunn! I am relieved that I just have had a run of poor luck. In my games, Indonesia have been founding plenty of cities, just not three off-continent. I am not confident that the BWN civs are particularly well balanced to all be in the same game, but it has been interesting to get to know them!