BNW Deity Tier List

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

I can't believe there is a disagreement about whether Shoshone is top tier. Fast starts are incredibly important and the Shoshone allow for the fastest start around.

I grant that they are definitely mid-tier for island starts but it seems to me the default around here is Pangea-ish settings or continents.

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If they had the pathfinder replace the warrior instead of the scout (meaning you could still build regular scouts, I'd agree). However, the increased hammer cost for PFs means you have less of them, and the bonus of choosing ruins is offset by the decreased # of ruins you can get. Generally once all the ruins are taken, I'd rather have cheaper scouts to still continue to explore.

Couple that with the need to keep some behind for stealing workers and its safe to say you will meet the CSs later than if you had played a generic civ.

But I think the increased borders by itself, not to mention the combat bonus puts them at least where Ethiopia is.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

I can't believe there is a disagreement about whether Shoshone is top tier. Fast starts are incredibly important and the Shoshone allow for the fastest start around.

I grant that they are definitely mid-tier for island starts but it seems to me the default around here is Pangea-ish settings or continents.

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Not a Babylon, Poland, Korea. Those are top.
Not even as good as Inca, Arabia, Egypt, Persia, Maya, Russia.

Scouting arguably worse than America.
Great expanse basically saves gold on tile purchase. I usually have no problem with working optimum tiles in the early game with city-state gold + tile purchase.
Only thing that is substantial for me is the Pathfinder. But like I said, I would rather have America, with more scouts and 3 sight range.

What do you guys think about Siam? I find him really good because CS allies bonus are very relevant. Not highest pick for me but up there. Focusing on CS benefit any kind of victory.


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America is one of the best civs in the game on multiplayer. Faith healers and B17 bombers is practically an instant win.

Sweden are way too low in my opinion, measured in terms of how consistently you can win across all 4 VCs. The great people boost means that you will get lots of everything you want, and although they're not the best for FAST DomVs, they can pick up momentum with GGs late on and troops that heal in between capitals.

My first Deity CV with them wasn't quick because I'm not a great player and have less knowledge of optimal play, but it's almost crazy how many great people you will produce when you pick them.

My 2nd DomV on Deity was a take-one-capital then tech for 100 turns kinda win and once I had the UUs and a load of generals (some to be turned into citadels, and enough spare left over), it was an unstoppable war machine.

I think in the hands of a top player Sweden could be a good contender for high score based wins, too.

Vitruvius said:

But like I said, I would rather have America, with more scouts and 3 sight range.

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Yeah because it's really important to learn where those other barb camps are.

consentient said:

Sweden are way too low in my opinion, measured in terms of how consistently you can win across all 4 VCs. The great people boost means that you will get lots of everything you want, and although they're not the best for FAST DomVs, they can pick up momentum with GGs late on and troops that heal in between capitals.

My first Deity CV with them wasn't quick because I'm not a great player and have less knowledge of optimal play, but it's almost crazy how many great people you will produce when you pick them.

My 2nd DomV on Deity was a take-one-capital then tech for 100 turns kinda win and once I had the UUs and a load of generals (some to be turned into citadels, and enough spare left over), it was an unstoppable war machine.

I think in the hands of a top player Sweden could be a good contender for high score based wins, too.

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Go to pages 24-26 on indepth discussion of Sweden Its been talked about more in this thread than any other civ.

kb27787 said:

If they had the pathfinder replace the warrior instead of the scout (meaning you could still build regular scouts, I'd agree). However, the increased hammer cost for PFs means you have less of them, and the bonus of choosing ruins is offset by the decreased # of ruins you can get. Generally once all the ruins are taken, I'd rather have cheaper scouts to still continue to explore.
.

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I don't agree with the assertions here. The PF's ability to ignore terrain AND stay away from unnecessary Barbarian confrontation increases the number of ruins significantly over the initial warrior. You cover so much more ground in the initial 20 turns I don't think it is even close, although I'll grant America may render Shoshone #2 in ruin hunting (but it's close due to the combat advantage over scouts).

As for after the ruins are taken, I'd still rather have a PF, because a scout/Xbow is an incredible weapon, offensively or defensively, for the entire game. Even if I don't upgrade the PF, it's survivability dwarfs that of a generic scout, not to mention it can steal workers and complete CS quests from across the globe.

I'll take 2 PF's over any combination of 3 scouts/warriors, and the 2 PF's would be cheaper.

Resipsa said:

Go to pages 24-26 on indepth discussion of Sweden Its been talked about more in this thread than any other civ.

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Yeah, but all I see is logical fallacies from the anti-Sweden camp. From what I can see, this 'math' is incredibly limited, obsessed with gold (which is not the most important commodity, is it?), and only seems to assume all GP will be gifted, and seems to assume that a 6-8 city empire is the way forward. In my CV with Sweden I had 3 powerhouse cities and each was pumping out GP less than every 10 turns. I had too many to know what to do with.

Q: (for Sweden detractors) Aside from Babylon, can any other civ vastly increase the rate at which GS spawn, WAY before Rationalism? In the above CV I had out-tech'ed the AIs sooooo much earlier than on ANY other game I've ever played. In the Deity Challenge with Inca (also 3 cities, but SV) it took me 50 turns later at least to get ahead of them. What happened was embarrassingly easy. I had to keep checking it was really Deity.

The OP says that the criteria is single-player and consistent wins across terrain/VC.

I still think it's clear from playing Sweden that since the 3 things the AI does worst at is war, using GP and tech'ing in the mid to late game, that Sweden is much, much better at these than many of the divs placed above it. It may not be Babylon or Poland, but it's the tier below that, I reckon.

If this 'math' is so flawless, then I'd like to see how Austria (a massively overrated civ, IMO) can possibly be seen to be better at CV/SV/DomV than Sweden mathematically.

Or, if this is not an objective tier list but one guy's opinions, then perhaps it should just say that.

Not sure how many people here also play/have played Magic: The Gathering, but when I was competing in Duel Commander tournaments (mainly in France), a tier list was drawn up for these decks according to TOURNAMENT results.

So beyond one guy saying stuff like 'Assuming Sweden gifts ALL its GP, it can only earn X gold', you'd have to have SERIOUS and EXTENSIVE analysis of single-player results, including score, win time, etc, across a very large number of games.

I've recently started playing on Deity level, and winning about 50% of the time right now, so I'm no expert, and all of the above is just my opinion, but I encourage anyone else new to Deity to play as Sweden after a few tries with other civs on the same tier and see how VASTLY easier it is to win with them.

Let's face it: the hardest challenge to face is an early game poor-dirt start sandwiched between Genghis, Alex and Shaka. And Sweden does a GOOD job of pacifying these guys with a tangible bonus. OP thinks 5 friends after ideologies is unrealistic but I've had it twice and I'm not even a great player. I think, intuitively, that Sweden is almost unlosable at DiploV (the easier VC), techs brilliantly and has so many GP it HAS to be in the tier list. If/when the REAL math comes out, we'll see for sure, I guess.

[EDIT: I should say that I really loved the OP's thread on playing 'Small' as a very different way of playing, and I managed to secure a very fun win with it on my 2nd attempt, so I'm sad to disagree on the issue of this tier list.]

I think Sweeden's biggest problem is the Tundra start bias. Given the OP's conditions for discussion are that you have to play every start you're given with start bias on. Thuis leaves Sweeden in a tough spot as it's easy to roll up some really lousy terrain up there.

The gifting of great people is neat but I seldom take advantage of it. I'll gift generals and admirals, but rarely want to give up GWAM. I don't tend to spawn Great Prophets either.

The GP generation depends heavily on the AI, something I never like relying on. They're... Fickle at best. I find I keep 2-3 friends for a while, seldom declaring too early and losing them all late.

Carloeans are a monster. No dispute there. Haakapellita are pretty meh. I have little use for lancers.

I'll take a typical tundra start with a couple of hills and a couple of deer over the kind of stuff I get with Askia or Darius, too many plains and not enough production, anyway. Aurora is nowhere near as good as DF but it's doable, especially when paired with Holy General. Plus Sweden often get whales, fish, stuff like that. Whales are usually pretty rare and a good trade.

I don't see what the problem is for the DoF. When I play as Sweden, people love me. I think the AI knows it's getting a bonus. I've NEVER been DoW'd, and I'm CERTAIN my diplo is nowhere near optimal.

Venice is so easy mode on water maps, even on Deity. I find it impossible to lose when you casually have over 500 gpt and can literally buy your way to victory. Of course, you have to keep them warmongers busy, but again, you've got the money.

Who's good for deity CV? I've tried Brazil and France but generally feel like Poland is better


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amphreded said:

Who's good for deity CV? I've tried Brazil and France but generally feel like Poland is better


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Give Sweden a whirl. You can get an early religion if you meet a religious CS by going 2 steps into Honour and giving them your general.

After you switch back to Tradition you can generate crazy amounts of great people if you stay peaceful and make friends, and once you have your unique unit, if you need to make war, you are in safe hands (going to war to steal wonders and great works).

A lot of people have argued against them but I'm not even a very good player and I found Sweden to be extremely powerful.

I agree that there are a lot of flaws with OP's analysis of Sweden. Some key points:

--I think OP underestimates the gold value of a free City-State alliance. Free happiness from alliance = can sell more luxes. Influence with City-States tend to snowball, thanks to both extra lux sales and easier quest completion. This is the most important factor, imo. OP also compares Sweden to Greece, but initial influence gained for 0gold is worth more than influence saved after investing, e.g., 1000g, so I don't think you can compare the value of influence 1:1 like that.
--I think OP underestimates the number of low-value great people that Sweden can generate. AIs are extremely careless about protecting Great Prophets, and they spam out a ton of those on Deity. OP also assumes that your own Great Prophets past the second are actually worth the cost of generating them, on the basis that "you wouldn't generate them if it wasn't worth it" (paraphrasing) -- the reality is that strong faith generation will often force you to generate Prophets that you don't actually want. Also, OP's valuation of Great Musicians assumes that you're sacrificing a great work by gifting, which often isn't true -- you can't make a great work unless you have space to store it, and Opera Houses are so weak that they often aren't built at all.
--OP's analysis of Sweden's extra GP generation assumes that you already have all other GP buffers -- e.g., adding 50% extra generation from the UA on top of Gardens/National Epic is less than a 50% real bonus. But Sweden's DoF bonus can kick in before you build those, and the key thing is you don't actually need to build them. Sweden's UA diminishes the relative value of these buildings, thus allowing you to build other stuff sooner. National Epic especially is very time consuming, and may not be worth it if you already have a buff to GP generation.
--I don't think Tundra start bias is actually that bad (although it probably is the worst start bias). OP acts like Tundra start = Tundra everywhere, which generally isn't true. Usually you get plenty of non-Tundra tiles, and what Tundra really does is lower the max size that your capital can productively grow to... which isn't that big an issue because it often won't be relevant until past turn 200.



On another note, the high ranking of Morocco is something that I find interesting. Morocco's bonuses aren't that exciting in and of themselves, so I assume that the rating for Morocco is based on the assumption that their UA will lead to attracting more AI trade routes (which are hugely valuable in the early game due to science leech). The UA is obviously designed to do that, but it seems like AI trade routes are pretty random and I'm not convinced that the moron AI actually maximizes gold like that. Has anyone tested this much? Does Morocco actually attract more trade routes?

Manpanzee said:

Does Morocco actually attract more trade routes?

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Not really. It's one of the most situational civs. Desert Folklore is nice but on Deity is by no means guaranteed. And Kasbah's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Plus, they don't do Dom or Science like Sweden. Nowhere near.

consentient said:

Not really. It's one of the most situational civs. Desert Folklore is nice but on Deity is by no means guaranteed. And Kasbah's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Plus, they don't do Dom or Science like Sweden. Nowhere near.

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I forgot the UA? Its more profitable trade routes or something? I think AI bases routes mostly on gold generation

salocin097 said:

I forgot the UA? Its more profitable trade routes or something? I think AI bases routes mostly on gold generation

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While trade routes to Morroco have little bonus, there is good chance that a route to well-developed city of other AI would be more profitable.

I assume it's all for players right? Cause America AI is amazing in every game I play so is Iroquois a lot of times.

some part of these tier lists are all about personal preference. I strongly disagree with some of the OP's choises.

Having Rome two tiers over Greece and Sweden, and 3 tiers over America doesn't really feel right to me. For me, Rome should be in the bottom tier list - there is simply not much there. You get some situational free hammers for buildings and thats it. Unique units are somewhat useless, as even if you go early domination, you can skip both and still do fine. I'd play Danmark over them any day.