Civ 5 - Schoolyard Politics

I love Civ 5, but has anyone else ever felt like the people who are "supposedly" the greatest leaders in world history act like whiny, self-entitled, petulant brats?

Politics throughout the ages haven't always showcased the finest examples of human behavior, but I'm pretty sure politics was never as personal as it is in Civilization 5. I would like to see Catherine the Great delivering this line to a king's face: "You've behaved very badly, you know it. Now it's payback time..." or Queen Maria I with "I'm afraid I cannot allow your kingdom to exist for much longer! I hope you won't mind... *laughs*"

The word "tantrum" springs to mind when I think of how diplomacy is conducted in Civilization 5. It seems that instead of being careful to cultivate good relations with an empire, you are being careful not to personally offend the various leaders of the world, lest they "chain-denounce" you as being a general all-around d-bag and take the time to gloat at you now and again and let you know just how much they hate YOU.

Perhaps it's the effect of personally talking to the world leaders like we're all awkwardly sharing the same room together. Gandhi and Pachacuti are holding hands and pouring tea at the table while George Washington seems to be glaring at you from across the room. Alexander the Great is talking about how awesome he is while Montezuma is roasting Napoleon's bleeding heart in the fireplace. You're grudgingly passing messages between Queen Elizabeth and Genghis Khan after the Canterbury incident, and keeping Shaka at a safe distance.

I find it a bit amusing to click the "You'll regret this" button when Maria Theresa is scolding me for being a more advanced civilization. I'm not calling for it to be changed, I was just wondering whether anyone else noticed the same.

LOL, your post is so spot-on, well done.

I find the childish communications from 'leaders' highly obnoxious. It's like Firaxis had a 13 year old come up with the whole diplomacy.

"I couldn't help but realize how pathetic you are... and when I realized, I couldn't help but share!"

It fits the rest of the game, though. V is a game made of plastic, not marble.

I do find the diplomacy childish, but- i figured thats because im very old (too old to play video games perhaps) and the game is aimed at younger people than me.

It's tongue in cheek. The silly tone works for me, but I guess if you want an ultra serious representation of historical figures it'd be disappointing.

Lezta said:

It's tongue in cheek. The silly tone works for me, but I guess if you want an ultra serious representation of historical figures it'd be disappointing.

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It's an approach that's quite common in games with a diplomatic element - Crusader Kings II does something similar with its "Dear Despicable so-and-so, we've decided to declare war" notifications and the like.

So if you're after a "serious representation of historical figures" even some of the most simulation-like historical strategy games won't deliver.

The diplomacy feels a bit "gamey", IMO.

Good post!

I always find it weird when a leader has nothing to insult me about because I'm far ahead of them so they just tell me how pathetic I am.

The one i find odd, is where i have 3 x their military and they greet me with something like 'ahh its the puny one'

I think that even for all we poke fun at it for, Civ 5's leaders are a HUGE improvement over Civ 4's leaders.

Instead of cartoon caricatures they're lifelike fully-animated lookalikes of the real person, with dialogue voiced in their native language (even Aramaic, Yucatec, and Zarma).

For me they got a lot more right than they did wrong, it's miles better than diplomacy in some other games which feels like some form of number crunching through dry info panels.

I thought it would be funny if your "camera" represented an ambassador to that nation, so that when you declared war on Nebuchadnezzar he would order you beheaded, and you get to watch the camera roll around on the floor.

The way it is now it feels more like Otto von Bismarck is playing a game of Civilization with me rather than him actually being some immortal, undying super-leader around since the dawn of time. Again, not a bad thing, just interesting.

I like that ambassador idea.

I've also noticed this and commented on it in a minor rant thread shortly after vanilla's release. The dialogue and general leader to leader interaction is unrealistically childish and detracts from the atmosphere of the game. The leaders in Civ5 act more like spoiled high-schoolers than important sovereigns operating on a world stage.

I_qua_I said:

I've also noticed this and commented on it in a minor rant thread shortly after vanilla's release. The dialogue and general leader to leader interaction is unrealistically childish and detracts from the atmosphere of the game. The leaders in Civ5 act more like spoiled high-schoolers than important sovereigns operating on a world stage.

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Do you follow the news at all? It's actually a remarkably common type of behaviour among real-world statesmen, even if (sometimes) couched in more "mature" language. And they will often not bother with that in domestic politics (watch any video of the House of Commons).

I think one thing pretty much everyone can agree on is that the insults don't add anything to the game. Having Elizabeth give you a vague insult every few turns doesn't add anything to the game, it merely reminds players how bonkers the diplomacy often is.

International relations has always been a kind of schoolyard affair. That's one thing Civ5 got very right.

I too find them rather childish maybe it's my age catching up with me but I get tired of being called vermin or puny if I happen to only have the 2nd largest military every few turns it just slows things down wish there was an option to turn that stuff off to save time. Now I just find it jarring because every time those screens come up it makes me think "ok that stupid subroutine just got actived I'm just playing a computer" instead of letting me role play a bit.

I honestly don't know whether I love or hate the AI comments. I loved the scene painted by the OP!

Two thoughts:
I doubt any human leader would address a highly successful war monster with "ah it's the bloodthirsty one" - I think they'd keep their powder dry until they saw how the conversation was going.

I'd love a button to respond to a DOW with "I see, well please feel free to send your best units into the mincer then!" or "Far be it from me say, but wouldn't it be quicker if you just shot most of your own troops and then gave me your best cities?"

(can't you tell I've just about won a Dom victory?!)

I miss cathy asking me if i have something in my pocket...or refusing to make peace because 'soldiers in uniform are so yummy'

And the creepy way monty used to SMILE as he threatened me lol

But- i do think having foreign language is a nice touch.