What if Trotsky had won?

One of the reasons that Stalin won the struggle within the party was that his idea of "communism in one country" seemed more doable that Trotsky's vision of international communism.

Since Trotsky was all about international communism, it is not that far fetched to asume that he might have interfered more in other countries' affairs to ensure that communist parties stayed in power. This could perhaps have meant direct confrontations between Americans and Soviets in Korea, which wold have been quite ugly.

Stalin killed almost all his generals. Even though Stalin himself was a brilliant tactician (aside from trusting Hitler!!), he only had one general, Zhukov to rely on. He killed all the rest.

If Trotsky had won then WWII might have started in the 20's after the other European powers got fed up of Troskeyite interventions in their countries.

Yours

Ross

Germany? Maybe.
Italy? Maybe.
Britain? No.
France? No.

Why? There was a thing called ... uhhh.. what's it called again? Why France waited several months to attack Germany in WWII (and not until Germany attacked)..er..... um.

Originally posted by Agamemnus
France? No.

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Really ? I know that the commies won the elections in 1936 in France...

Regards

I don't think there were much difference...

You can't drive a totaly "communistic" state without beeing brute!

Why should i work if i get my money anyway?
Because i get killed if I won't

That's the point....
A system that isn't based upon personal profit can't work without a strong leader!


About the tactical thing....

I think that the Sovjets had been briliant tactitians all the time...
They achieved a lot, didn't they?

Not to mention later in the cold war when thy were always in front of the US...

The following is an unresearcherd rant, brought to you by Agamemnus.

Trotsky was gonna marry a PAINTER for god's sake!

Don't tell me the Soviets had brilliant tacticians.. the Germans used large divisions of tanks NOT mixed with infantry. The Russians did not counter this threat with the same, but used infantry mixed with tanks, thereby increasing their losses and increasing their chances of being ENCIRCLED!!!

Stalin was very very paranoid and killed many many millions of people. Sure he started an industrialization, one that was going to happen anyways. (The monarchs WERE interested in industrialization, and WERE trying to westernize, just had a lot of family problems )

He killed many millions of people. He allowed many millions of his own people to die just to put the German army where he could be most effective. He was just like Hitler, and did not allow his soldiers to retreat. Only after he knew he would turn back the tide did he formally issue his position on the war, "Not one step back!" HAH!

He put almost all his aircraft at the border in Poland so that they were within range of the German bombers and utterly destroyed in the 'surprise' attack. This meant that he was forced to pull back.
Stalin was an utter fool and the following five year plans focused on military production of tanks, rather than production of goods.
He forced people to STARVE while they built TANKS for him! He started the cold war.

Stalin TRUSTED Hitler! He hated the Jews, and besides being brutal dicators who did nothing but drive their countries into ruin, that was the only thing they had in common.

Trotsky would have made a much better leader for the Soviet Union, but I don't think he would have left Mexico even if he wasn't assasinated.

Trotsky --> [dance]
Stalin -->

PS: 'France: No' meant that France would not just attack the Soviet Union just because it would be trying to instill the Communist party inside it. They are getting taken over by Muslim extremists ATM, and what do they do? Nothing.

PS: 'France: No' meant that France would not just attack the Soviet Union just because it would be trying to instill the Communist party inside it. They are getting taken over by Muslim extremists ATM, and what do they do? Nothing.

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All the world talks about "Austrains far right party of Haider", but nobody about Le Pen's "front nationale".

The "front nationale" is realy far right, and does not deny it!
Nobody says that le Pen gets about 30% of all votes, haider "only" 22%. btw - Haider's party isn't far right, its a "populistic" party - Haider says the things the people want to hear. Without Haider his party wouldn't be different from any other "normal" party.


What i wanted to say: of course France is doing something!
What do you suggest they should do? Or what else they could do?

Well you don't see France invading Iraq or Iran do you? The proposition that France (and the rest of Europe) would invade the Soviet Union if Trotsky was in power, because of his would-be spread of communism to other nations like France is absurd.

PS: I do concede that perhaps France is trying to do something, but something as drastic as war.

The proposition that France (and the rest of Europe) would invade the Soviet Union if Trotsky was in power, because of his would-be spread of communism to other nations like France is absurd.

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Totalay agree! That's absurd!

Well you don't see France invading Iraq or Iran do you?

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I thought you ment the take-over from the inside (immigrants).

Yes I did, but perhaps that's why France is a bit shaky on any sort of war..

Yes I did, but perhaps that's why France is a bit shaky on any sort of war..

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hmm.. wouldn't say that. They just don't do that what the US tells them like the British are doing it.

I'm Austrian, an so *naturaly* no France - fan, but i think they have done great things togehter with Germany the last 50 years, and I'm very happy that they act like Europeans and not like US-servants.

PS: I'm not sure, but I think France has a more powerfull or at least the same powerfull Army than the British...

Sorry - my mistake ...

I understood that the problem is if France will be an easy target for Soviet infiltrations if Trotsky would lead U.S.S.R.

Regards

I don't think its that absurd...Muslim extremeists are not likely to overthrow the goverment after all.

In the 20's and 30's the French (and the British) did fear the Communists seizing power and if a Trotsky regime was active war would have happen.

There really isn't any comparing the situation today with say Iraq. Also remember that the USSR itself would not have been thought of as millitarily supreme - unless one counts the Civil War, Russia had been defeated in every war since the 1880's.

Yours

Ross

Originally posted by RNolan
In the 20's and 30's the French (and the British) did fear the Communists seizing power and if a Trotsky regime was active war would have happen.

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I find it hard to believe that any of The European nations would have reacted differently if Trotsky would have been in power. Although, it would all depend on how Trotsky acted in office.

It certainly wouldn't have been a definite outcome.

I don't see why they wouldn't have acted differently if Trotsky behaved in any way characteristically. In fact I would be astonished if steps to contain 'Trotskyitism' had not been taken.

Yours

Ross

i can't see how the whole Trozky affair is connected with the communists in the reest of Europe...

i can say this for Austria:

It was after WW1, but before the German anexion...

There had been Communisitc, Socialistic, Conservative and "Great Germany" parties.

Most votes had been for Socialists and Conservatives...

The Conservative got the Chancellor, and became the leading party.... The Socialists didn't want to follow them...

It leads to Civil War in Austria, wich was won by they Conservatices who became fascist, friend of Mussolini and oposite to Hitler.. Was a kind of dictatorship then

But the Conservatives forbit all left wing parties...
After this many Socialists went to the USSR and became Communists, becuase they thought that "Socialism" can't be brought with politics any longer...


You see - most Communists in europe became only communists to be in oposition to the right-wing dictatorships.

Originally posted by RNolan
I don't see why they wouldn't have acted differently if Trotsky behaved in any way characteristically. In fact I would be astonished if steps to contain 'Trotskyitism' had not been taken.

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Well, what do you assume Trotsky would have done?

I think saying that Trotsky would have gone guns blazing around Europe is a gross over-estimation, but there would have been differences. The USSR would have took on a more interventionalist role, but I doubt it would have been enough for The Allies to consider war.

Perhaps later, if Trotsky grows in confidence if he is succesful, but in the twenties or early thirties, I think not.

We must remember that there had already been a half-hearted attempt by the allies to already dispose of the Communist regime, which had been essentially abandoned. The political mainstream after the war was not exactly hardline anti-communist, more it was a sort of indifferent distaste.

Oh yes, I remember it:

APPEASEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What did the Allies do when Poland was gobbled up by Russia and Germany??

NOTHING

When Belgium and France was falling England was EVACUATING because they didn't put nearly enough defenders there!

So what makes you think that they would have reacted with declaring war on the USSR if it had been importing communism?

The allies did nothing to really pressure the Soviet regime until the Soviets developed the nuclear bomb.

Definite answer to thread question: I wouldn't be living in America right now but probably in the mini-palace my ancestors had before the onslaught of Stalin's communism.

Originally posted by Agamemnus
What did the Allies do when Poland was gobbled up by Russia and Germany??

NOTHING

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They declared war, as far as I remember.

Originally posted by Agamemnus
When Belgium and France was falling England was EVACUATING because they didn't put nearly enough defenders there!

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Yes, they were evacuating because The BEF was at risk of being completely obliterated!

Originally posted by Agamemnus
The allies did nothing to really pressure the Soviet regime until the Soviets developed the nuclear bomb.

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Civil war incursions into Russia?