The Lost Civilization

It would be cool if they left the Pueblo art in the game files and modders could recreate it.

They may have went to the Tewa to find a speaker for Popay, since he was Tewa. Hopi or Zuni would be inaccurate. I've heard that the Tewa, along with other Tanoan tribes are very protective of their heritage. Some pueblos forbid the writing down of their languages.

Does anyone have a link to a video of this pax conference?

seancolorado said:

I hate to use this cliched argument but I think a lot of you need it:

Put yourself in the shoes of the civ team. You go and meet with the Natives and they say they don't want Pueblo in the game. How culturally insensitive do you have to be to go ahead and include them anyway? We live in the real world, and person-to-person interactions have that effect.

Of course, it is true that everybody's history is our history - but by the very same rationale if our history is theirs, then we need to show some respect and understanding and abide by their cultural norms.

Do I want Pueblo in the game? Hell yes I do. But what happens happens

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Indeed.

Maybe to us it isn't a bit deal, but to the Pueblo people it might be a very big deal and it might be viewed as not just an insult, but close to an attack on their very identity - maybe for reasons discussed here, maybe for reasons we don't know. So what if it isn't offensive to us? It is to them because of their cultural worldview and historical circumstances, and that's what mattered in Firaxis' decision, and that's something rarely anyone in the media ever does - instead usually people willy-nilly include cultural elements from other cultures without realizing what they're doing or even if they're disrespecting portrayals -, and I respect that.

This isn't like some fascist or communist government coming down and forcing Firaxis to censor out something - this is Firaxis' own decision to be respectful to a group of people who have utterly suffered and still suffer from the consequences of European conquest. For us, this might be a game; to them, this might be an utter mockery of their existence and a travesty. Different perspectives, that's really what it's all about.

While I would love to try the Pueblo Civ, I'm glad they honored the wishes of the Pueblo people and kept them out.

I feel that if Muhammad or Jesus were put into the games as leaders, it would offend many Muslims and Christians respectively. Were they important historically? Yes, but by adding them, you profane something sacred to a group of people.

While I won't pretend to understand the meaning the Pueblo culture or Pope' has to the Pueblo people, I feel that it was best to honor their wishes.

While I'm disappointed, I understand the circumstances. I just hope that they include another Native American civilization.

Part of me is pleased, to be honest. Ed Beach/Dennis Shirk made it sound as if the Pueblo Indians were going to be able to build a UI on a mountain tile. While that is unique, it wouldn't be wholly appropriate given that the Incans build their Terrace Farms on hills. Would have bugged me slilghtly.

You are most welcome to suggest a better analogy instead of criticizing alone!

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Watched the Pueblo portion of the stream again, anybody else notice that Dennis Shirk specifically mentions espionage when discussing the knotted rope as a way of organising the rebellion despite language barriers. Do you think this is just a throwback to G+K marketing where the word "espionage" has probably engraved itself into his brain, or another aspect of their UA?

Beefie said:

Watched the Pueblo portion of the stream again, anybody else notice that Dennis Shirk specifically mentions espionage when discussing the knotted rope as a way of organising the rebellion despite language barriers. Do you think this is just a throwback to G+K marketing where the word "espionage" has probably engraved itself into his brain, or another aspect of their UA?

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I took it to be part of the proposed UA along with some kind of bonus to building cities next to mountains.

We haven't got a specifically espionage-focused civ yet, so it's a possibility

Pouakai said:

We haven't got a specifically espionage-focused civ yet, so it's a possibility

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Doesn't England get an extra spy or something?

cybrxkhan said:

Doesn't England get an extra spy or something?

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That's hardly a focus on espionage, though.

Well, that's sad news. One of the reasons I like Civ is because I occassionally get some learning from the game. Perhaps Firaxis can negotiate with the counsel to get something released as DLC, though from the details folks are giving here that sounds unlikely.

It would have been neat to have the Pueblo, but if they don't want to be in the game I suppose I don't want to play as them.

cybrxkhan said:

Doesn't England get an extra spy or something?

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Yes, but it's hard to say that England is at all "espionage focused." Or that any Civ would benefit from that, in any event.

Not to sound insensitive but it's their loss, there are plenty of Native American tribes that would be happy to share there culture with those willing to learn, the Cherokee and Navajo come to mind.

Yea it sounded like they may have had some espionage/mountain UA focus. Could have done a lot of things with the Pueblo (Better yielding trade routes, mountain side use, desert canals/irrigation, espionage, self defending caravans/trade ships [The Anasazi traded all across the Continental US and with Mesoamerica, there are records of their merchants being trained to defend their caravans/traders from some of the more 'barbarous'/raider Native American Civs over long stretches], additional religious options, etc.

There were a ton of options.

And as for some posts saying a lack of "Quality substitutable leaders", you are right, there are few that would stand out as much as Pope would. But just because relatively they are less known, doesn't mean there weren't other leaders. A cacique controlled each Pueblo and occasionally controlled several Pueblos at once. There are say a half dozen caciques that could be chosen. Nothing on the level of Pope, but still potential leader quality.

A pity, but I understand the tribe's and the Civ team's decision. I just hope there is some kind of Native American representation. Still hoping for the Cherokee .

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but try putting yourself in the development teams shows for the scenario:

This objection sounded as if: 1) it was related to Pope in particular as a prominent individual to be respected, or 2) it was related to Pueblo leaders and people on the whole as a cultural impasse. From the exact words they said at PAX, it is supposition to say anything more than 1, but that does not preclude the possibility of 2.

Now, on the assumption that 1 was the problem, they've reached an awkward stage. They need to find a new leader or they need to find a new civ. In this situation, i would want to establish if i've got to chuck the whole civ or just a leader before starting anew again, so they go back to their searches, and consult the Pueblo people some more to see what they would be comfortable with.

Now if the Pueblo people had stuck to this "no" stance i would have expected them to be a bit clearer in their panel about the extent to which they said no. They wouldn't want to be blamed for cutting something the fans would have loved, they'll want to pass it on and show why it had to be cut. By simply saying "leader" they would be confusing the situation and leaving it open to this kind of debate about whether they are still in. So i believe the issue cannot therefore be 2; pope was the problem, not the civ.

To me this leaves two options. First, the pueblo people were fine with other leaders, but couldn't give many suitable examples and the civ team couldn't find any, so it was scrapped for lack of suitable alternatives. OR, there was another leader found, and the problem only manifested at a leader level so the civ is still in.

Quite true, and I wouldn't put it past Firaxis to hamhandedly try to set up a surprise twist wherein the Pueblo make it in with a lesser leader.

I consider the Pueblo to still be in the running but as a last place dark horse.

Eagle Pursuit said:

Quite true, and I wouldn't put it past Firaxis to hamhandedly try to set up a surprise twist wherein the Pueblo make it in with a lesser leader.

I consider the Pueblo to still be in the running but as a last place dark horse.

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I agree!

What's probably the most messed up bit of all this is that in my mind right now they still stand a significantly better chance of inclusion than they did before they were mentioned at PAX...

or they just renamed the civ "Native Americans II" and miss-mashed a bunch of different cultures together. We get Sitting Bull, who's UA lets them build cities on mountain tiles, a totem pole UB, and a gun-powder horse UU... civ 4 all over.

I would like to know more specifically as to why the Pueblo descendants were so offended. Did they expect his portrayal to show negative aspects somehow? Like Pepey potentially startnig aggressive wars in the game?