Bank Science -> Industry Tree

Just removing a post from the other forum to name something specific and put it here.

I've marked a concern that the Science from Banks is a good idea, but slightly out of place: the intent was essentially to give a boost to Merchant Civilizations, particularly if using the Industry Tree.

Thus, rather than putting the "spend money -> gain science" ability on the Bank, I suggest simply moving it to the Industry Tree - though weaker, since not everyone would be picking Industry; and we could include money spent on Unit Upgrades. Thus the following results.

1. I can't burn all the AIs money through intelligent trading anymore to deplete their science, because the ability is no longer universal.

2. Makes thematic sense as Banks aren't doing this much research, but an Industrialist is certainly interested in how his money translates to science and what he can learn from his expenditures.

3. It functions in the slot that we want to improve (Industry) without the potential for heavy fluctuation (since even non-Merchant Civs can have high income or Merchant Civs have low income depending on the circumstances, which makes balancing the Bank's ability extremely awkward).

4. Removes the monotony of wanting to have Banks everywhere ASAP so no money spent ever equates to lost science: buildings stay on a more level playing field of strategic choice instead of virtual necessity.

Not really a fan, I like the bank as it is, and I like that you don't really need to go industry for it. Some civs have heavy gold-bonuses and maybe they shouldn't need to go industry to make use out of it. I mean if you're already gold-capped why grab more gold?


On the other hand it is quite possible that industry is underpowered, if that is true then that is an issue that needs to be addressed at some point.

No strong opinion either way on changing up the Bank balance-wise (though I'll admit the Science from buying things doesn't seem natural to me).

I do really like the idea of buffing Industry with Science somehow. Several games I've wanted to go for Industry but not been able to stomach the opportunity cost of all the beakers offered by Rationalism.

I like it a lot.
I never was a fan of the bank generating science.

Well, assuming you want to go through with this, you're going to need to make up a new ability to replace the bank one with because I'm fairly certain Gazebo is not letting the Bank go back to being a way more expensive market.

Give it whatever the policy that is going to be replaced gave before, more or less, and we will avoid balancing issues.

tu_79 said:

Give it whatever the policy that is going to be replaced gave before, more or less, and we will avoid balancing issues.

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Policies are definitely not building abilities, so they are definitely not interchangeable.

Presenting Industry:

1. Free trade - -20% poverty and +2 gold from trade-routes
That's not going to happen, overlapping with existing buildings in the same line.

2. Division of Labour +2 production +1 gold on Windmills Workshops Factories +15% hammers from investment.
First part is way too weird for a building. Second part is way too powerful for a building to be honest, it's one of the main selling-points of Industry

3. Entrepeneurship - Great merchants earned 25% faster, +1 gold and production from Lumbermills mine Quarry.
Another thing that doesn't translate very well to a building.

4. Mercantilism - +2 culture/science from Customhouse Bank and Stockexchange, +33% yield from internal trade-routes.
First ability is a weird fit for a building. The second ability is weird in general.

5. Protectionism - +2 gold from trade-routes, +1 trade-route.
Clearly not applicable on a building.

Funak said:

Well, assuming you want to go through with this, you're going to need to make up a new ability to replace the bank one with because I'm fairly certain Gazebo is not letting the Bank go back to being a way more expensive market.

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I don't actually see what's wrong with a Bank's being a more expensive Market - it's perfectly fine to have some buildings that are boring. If I need money, I'm going to build a Bank, if I don't, I won't build a Bank; this is true of most buildings and actually influences strategy: If I want Faith, I'll build Shrines and Temples, if that's not my priority, I won't build them; sometimes I'll build an Amphitheatre in a hurry, sometimes I won't, and so on. All this is under the assumption that I either can't afford everything or that I need to prioritize things. However, Banks in the present arena have gone from something that was an option to something that is almost so essential that it would be insane to pass it up - I can't say I favor this much.

As for the Policy - it could just go with the one that offers +2 Gold to Land trade routes, which I think is lame, anyways - the other option is that we swap it out for "get science whenever a building is constructed" - which in the long run would provide everyone using the ability a uniform science, but those high in cash will have stronger science sooner than others.

In any case, my main concern is the severe unpredictability of the current setup. Of course, there are always factors that influence your science (what you build first, whether you're in a war, how many scientists you put in), but at any given time, there's a realistic limit of how much science you can have - though extra effort will get you ahead of others. Banks as they are can completely thwart this, since Gold values between players, or between one Merchant player and another, or between one Non-Merchant player and another, can vary so widely and for reasons that may be so out of one's control that I cannot possibly believe that this building is balanced. In a previous game that had a crashing error at a certain turn - I was comfortably leading by 2 techs; as soon as I hit Banks, I immediately pulled ahead of everyone by a landslide, especially with not so much generating my own cash, but controlling THEIR cash through trades; but in any case, my basic income gave me an effective +40% bonus to my science, which is simply outrageous. The AI doesn't realize that now in effect (I forget the value - I'm at work) 5 Gold = 1 Science, which is an ENORMOUS value that's should be exploited for all its worth.

But, going back to the beginning - I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, but if it's there just to help Industry...then let's let it help Industry in a more controlled fashion. Banks can do something else or just be boring, and that really IS ok.

Gidoza said:

I don't actually see what's wrong with a Bank's being a more expensive Market - it's perfectly fine to have some buildings that are boring. If I need money, I'm going to build a Bank, if I don't, I won't build a Bank; this is true of most buildings and actually influences strategy: If I want Faith, I'll build Shrines and Temples, if that's not my priority, I won't build them; sometimes I'll build an Amphitheatre in a hurry, sometimes I won't, and so on. All this is under the assumption that I either can't afford everything or that I need to prioritize things. However, Banks in the present arena have gone from something that was an option to something that is almost so essential that it would be insane to pass it up - I can't say I favor this much.

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First of all, I'm not sure if I'm alone in this, but I think you're severely overvaluing the bank. Being able to convert gold to science in a 0.15 ratio is definitely not bad, but it's nowhere near essential.

Second, you're probably fine with the Bank being boring, but I can bet you that old G is not. He hates boring buildings. Especially later era boring buildings.

Third, I think I didn't quite make it clear enough just how terrible a bank actually is.
Comparing it to a market, the hammer-price is x4, and you earn 1 extra gpt from the bank, all the while you lose out on the trade-route bonus from the market, which is not present in the bank.

But, going back to the beginning - I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, but if it's there just to help Industry...then let's let it help Industry in a more controlled fashion. Banks can do something else or just be boring, and that really IS ok.

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I don't actually think it's there just to help Industry, I think it's there to help economy-based civs as well, and I feel it is somewhat unfair to herd them towards Industry when they are already economy-based and probably doesn't need the gold that much.

We could have Gold produced converted to Science.

Reducing Building Maintenance in the City. It could give Gold on various Buildings.

Make the Bank more similar to the Stock Exchange: 2 Merchants and Gold per pop. How it used to be.

Giving some Gold to TRs would make it like the Customs House. Unless you really would want Gold on Internal TRs.

Second, you're probably fine with the Bank being boring, but I can bet you that old G is not. He hates boring buildings. Especially later era boring buildings.

Third, I think I didn't quite make it clear enough just how terrible a bank actually is.
Comparing it to a market, the hammer-price is x4, and you earn 1 extra gpt from the bank, all the while you lose out on the trade-route bonus from the market, which is not present in the bank.

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Ok ok...what if we dropped the GTP and instead made the Bank give +10% Gold in the city. It won't be useful for smaller cities - but for bigger ones it'll sure be helpful!

As for the science bonus - I really don't think I'm underestimating it - I'm getting sooooo many free techs out of this! And it's getting old to systematically speedbuild everything while neglecting to upgrade certain war units because they're not experienced enough to be worth it.

I don't actually think it's there just to help Industry, I think it's there to help economy-based civs as well, and I feel it is somewhat unfair to herd them towards Industry when they are already economy-based and probably doesn't need the gold that much.

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But that's the thing and my main problem - if it is for helping Economy-based Civs, the bonus needs to be more focused and less variable, because Gold production can be extremely wacky and unpredictable. A bonus like 10% bonus Gold in a city takes a strong Merchant and makes the Merchant even stronger by exaggerating his strength in a way that is measurable; Banks producing science is unmeasurable, unpredictable, and tedious in that it forces a certain play route to get benefits, which is undesirable. So it's fair that we shouldn't want to push Merchants specifically into Industry - we need something that helps Merchants generally, and something that helps Industry, because it needs it. The present setup does both in some indirect sense, but not in a way that I find very convincing, and in my opinion it mostly just screws the AI (or rather, enables me to screw the AI).

We could have Gold produced converted to Science.

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It's a fun idea but is essentially the same problem transferred to a different domain, so I'd have to say no to this one.

Reducing Building Maintenance in the City. It could give Gold on various Building

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Nothing particularly wrong with this. In fact, this could be useful to Merchants indirectly as they are more likely to have more buildings in a city than non-Merchants would.

Make the Bank more similar to the Stock Exchange: 2 Merchants and Gold per pop. How it used to be.

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Meh.

Giving some Gold to TRs would make it like the Customs House. Unless you really would want Gold on Internal TRs.

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I don't know how to assess this - I'll defer to Funak on this one.

I agree with others that all the "+2 from certain trade routes" policies in Industry are pretty underwhelming.

Some ideas for effects that would be more fun:

• Instant Science and Gold when a Trade Route completes
• +2 from Merchants
• +5% Production from Workshops and Factories

Personally, beakers especially would make Industry more appealing.

wobuffet said:

I agree with others that all the "+2 from certain trade routes" policies in Industry are pretty underwhelming.

Some ideas for effects that would be more fun:

• Instant Science and Gold when a Trade Route completes
• +2 from Merchants
• +5% Production from Workshops and Factories

Personally, beakers especially would make Industry more appealing.

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I like where you're going with this - it makes things like trade routes more of a tactical investment for banks and you need to assess location, desire, and need. Do expand!!!

I would really prefer if the science in industry didn't get buffed to the point where you have to buff the science of imperialism as well, just to keep up.

Let's see:
Bank: +2 , Every time a unit or a building is purchased in the city, 15% of the cost is converted into , and bonuses to some resources.
Entrepeneuship: +25%GM production, +1 +1 for every mine, quarry, lumbermill.

Now:
I can't see why they cannot be exchanged.
Bank:+25%GM production, +1+1 for every mine, quarry and lumbermill, bonuses to resources
Entrepeneurship: +2 to banks, every time a unit or a building is purchased, 15% of the cost is converted into

It's essentially the same (so no balancing issues), but banks are necessary only in cities producing great merchants or with mines/quarries/lumbermills, and you'll only get science from it if you pick the Industrialism tree.

If +25%GM production is difficult to implement in a city, change it for +n GM points.

I can't see the Bank as a more specialized building. Otherwise I would like the TR suggestion.

Another idea would be to have the Bank or Industry give Culture for Gold spent.

A note on Merchants: There aren't as many Merchants as Scientists or Engineers. We ought give another building some Merchant slots.

The Buildings with Merchants: Market, Customs House, Bank, and Stock Exchange with 2. 5 Total

The buildings with Scientists: Library, University, Observatry, Pub School, Zoo, Mil Academy, and Research Lab. 7 Total

The Buildings with Engineers: Forge, Workshop, Windmill, Train Station has 2 or Seaport has 1, and the Factory with 2. 6 or 7 Total

phantomaxl1207 said:

The buildings with Scientists: Library, University, Observatry, Pub School, Zoo, Mil Academy, and Research Lab. 7 Total

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Someone forgot their monastery. 8 total

Monastery requires that belief, and the Royal Library Court Astrologer requires the Tradition tree and is only in the Capital; so I wouldn't count them, assuming we're only doing buildings every player will have access to.

wobuffet said:

Monastery requires that belief, and the Royal Libary requires the Tradition tree and is only in the Capital; so I wouldn't count them, assuming we're only doing buildings every player will have access to.

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Court Astrologer I agree with, since it's more of a wonder than a building. But I'd definitely count the monastery considering all cities can build it.

How does the current bank mechanic work?
If you invest in a building you get X science, where X is a certain percentage of the current science output of the city?