Why choose order?

Now that the buy GE with faith ability is in tradition, what impetus is there to choose order? Is it just the factory science bonus? Everything else just seems like poop by the time it becomes available.

Also, I am pretty pissed about the false equivalence of capitalism and democracy in the freedom tree... It's historically accurate in that the CIA assassinated or helped carry out military coups to install bloodthirsty genocidal tyrants in any country foolish enough to elect a socialist government.

Magma_Dragoon said:

Now that the buy GE with faith ability is in tradition, what impetus is there to choose order? Is it just the factory science bonus? Everything else just seems like poop by the time it becomes available.

Also, I am pretty pissed about the false equivalence of capitalism and democracy in the freedom tree... It's historically accurate in that the CIA assassinated or helped carry out military coups to install bloodthirsty genocidal tyrants in any country foolish enough to elect a socialist government.

Click to expand...

In the freedom tree I believe covert ops increases city state coup chance which is like CIA actions.

Order gives large benfits for empires with many cities. +2 happiness from monuments basically means +2 happiness from all cities. +25% science from factories is a big one, and building them faster is huge in smaller cities. Also consider what your opponents take, on higher difficulties, the AI often have many cities and go order, this means you can get a diplo bonus from order and +33% tourism (+ another 33% if they have lower happiness).

Order is extremely useful for wider civs. As Builder said, their happiness and science is taken to extreme levels. Furthermore, you can get many bonuses to your cities, none of which is utterly useless, like some from the freedom tree are (2/3 of tier 1). Emperor and above, hostile pressure is also a piece of the puzzle you need to consider, though AI tends to be completely irrational with its choices.

But the human players should always go tall, wide is even worse now than it was in g+k. Domination can be achieved long before ideologies become available. Freedom is the obvious choice for diplo or culture, so that just leaves science. So that means it's a tossup between new deal in freedom and worker's faculties in order.

I've used Order playing tall (as Sweden, ironically) just to get the huge, 68% bonus to tourism, not to mention the 25% ideology bump with other Order Civs, which (in my case) was all of them.

Order can be good good for tall and wide empires depending on your tenets. Worker's Faculties is a pretty big deal. Although the doubled construction speed for factories wil be insignificant if you've already built three and only have two or three cities without one, it's imho the sinlge best tenet for a science victory.
Socialist Realism is decent for wide empires, but if you go tall young pioneers is better. It gives up to three happiness per city, the catch being that it mostly gives happines bonuses for buildings that require resources and can't be built in puppets (but can be bought there if you're Venice).
Speaking of buying, Skyscrapers is also one of the best tenets/policies in the game. It's very useful in it's own right, but combined wih Mercantilism and Big Ben purchasing buildings becomes dirt cheap and you can outfit your cities with moren era buildings soon as you've researched them.
I think it's a very decent ideology and can compete with with Freedom for culture and science victories. The only major downside is that it unlocks a wonder that would be completely useless if not for the free policy.

Going for UN victory: Freedom clearly superior. (Nothing from Order, but Freedom has a level 3 tenent that will give +4 influence per turn in city states in which you have a trade route.) Autocracy also has gunboat diplomancy, but you need a large army and troops throughout the map to get this so it's much harder to use.

Culture victory. All have some bonuses, an above poster has mentioned Order's biggest one.. But I think provided you secure CN Tower (alternative build Broadcast Tower in cities in which there is significant tourism), then Freedom will be superior with a 34% boost; again a level 3 tenet. Also there's tenents within freedom that for all specalists, including guild ones will increase growth & happiness. Autocracy's culture bonuses appear underwhelming by comparison.

Spacerace: I think Freedom is superior; even if you can faith buy GEs. Getting the gold to cash rush space race parts is much easier. In my previous game, I cash rushed all but one part.

Domination: Order is clearly better than Freedom here. But I think Autocracy is even better for domination. I guess the main question is why isn't the game already effectively over going for Domination by the time you can choose an ideology given that the earliest you can reach it is Industrial era.

Freedom & Order both have some indirect bonuses that apply to all victory types.

Freedom's is focused on specialist use and working great tiles. This basically allows Freedom faster growth and a massive happiness bonus from those specialists. Combine with Rationalism & Statue of Liberty and you can get quite a boost by running all specialist slots. In addition those Academies you built will now produce more science / landmarks more culture etc.

Order is much more focused on buildings, especially the factory. (If you've not yet built all factories, a big boost building them; a science boost in all cities with a factory) And 10 science in your capital helps for all victory types even if its not as much as a single Freedom academy.

Do you get a free courthouse in a city you captured before adopting Iron Curtain?

Magma_Dragoon said:

Also, I am pretty pissed about the false equivalence of capitalism and democracy in the freedom tree... It's historically accurate in that the CIA assassinated or helped carry out military coups to install bloodthirsty genocidal tyrants in any country foolish enough to elect a socialist government.

Click to expand...

The victors write the history... and the games, regardless of the truth of it. But you are right.

livsbrand said:

Do you get a free courthouse in a city you captured before adopting Iron Curtain?

Click to expand...

No. And you only get the free courthouse if you annex immediately once you capture a city.

I have gone with Order in both of my cultural victories, but only because it's the one that everyone takes, and being friends is easier subsequently, allowing easier open borders and sharing of ideologies, rather useful for tourism pushes. And the bonuses may not be amazing, but they are clearly nothing to scoff at either.

Because you can?
No, seriously, it's got some good stuff. It is definitely the way to go for wide empires, being better than either Freedom or Autocracy, and if you're going cultural and there are a lot of other Order civs the tenet that boosts Tourism is very useful. On the flip side, the boost to Science from factories and the extra tourism to civs with less happiness can actually be useful for tall empires. Freedom remains the strongest ideology in my opinion, but Order's not too bad (though the Kremlin is a pretty worthless and kind of bizarre choice for the Order-specific wonder...)

Freedom is for tall and small empire. It is useless if u have 10+ cities.
Autocracy is useless if you dont go war [you might have war in the past, but you stopped for some reasons].

So, order remains. Dont understand what is unclear here.

I almost always go Order.

1) The AI usually goes Order, so I can avoid happiness penalties for "wrong" ideology usually, and I can work the tourism bonus if I'm going for CV.
2) Order has the best happiness bonuses and happiness is the most annoying mechanic in the game, so I'm happy to have the ability to avoid dealing with it =D

Because most civs pick it. (On higher difficulties that is reason enough just to avoid the -30 revolutionary wave penalty)
If going for CV the +34% influence for less happiness (and order is great at keeping empires, tall or wide, happy) and +34% for same ideology (likely to happen)
25% science and double factory production is nothing to sneeze at either.

Funny - In all my games I always end up with Order. All that happiness and production bonuses makes me invincible. It must depend heavily how you play your games as it should be.

kb27787 said:

Because most civs pick it. (On higher difficulties that is reason enough just to avoid the -30 revolutionary wave penalty)

Click to expand...

No need to pick the predominant ideology for that. Just run all guild spots even if you don't build a single world wonder and you'll get just enough culture & tourism to stay free of influence from all but those AI civs that push culture victory the hardest. (At worse, the cultural flavor 10 AIs will be no more than one step ahead of you; you'll be even or slightly ahead of the flavor 6 and well ahead of the flavor 3.) This will include a food cargo ship or two to your capital to support all the guild & science specialists there.

Freedom is pretty happiness starved; Universal Suffrage requires your cities to be tall enough to run a lot of specialists and the other happiness tenants are for buildings that require a lot of hammers compared to their equivalents in the other ideologies.

Yeah, sure, if you're winning handily Freedom is definitely the best option to keep winning. But if you're having issues of some form or another Order/Autocracy are the way to go.

I wish Order t3 policy for Space Victory got updated with changes to Faith bought GP. The only way to have any use of it is to run Tradition, when wide/order-like empire would use Liberty (not counting full piety, it's still too weak compared to those two, and next to useless if you go for SV). Either that policy also unlocking GEs, giving just %production to space ship parts or at very least drastically increasing gold cost of buying them for Freedom, it's almost unfair how useless it is in comparison.

Offtopic and flavor: don't you see the contrast between Order (socialism) and Liberty (Republic)?

A natural continuation for Liberty is Freedom, not Order, when we look at it from the logical point of view.