Broken Star

@ all: Good discussion.

While there might have been some more uniqueness to each of the civs, I like the scenario and the premise. So far I have played it three times and I only managed to take out a single opponent before being stonewalled by Rebel Leader.

He seems to outspend me 10:1 with all his cities, generating research and building troups. This is probably also why the tech upgrades I-IV aren't too powerful. By the time I'd have researched one upgrade, he is three levels ahead and would be even more formidable with ultra powerful Modern Armour IV against my spearman infantery.

But I'll take the advise of JPRC and forget about tech for a change and crank out weapons. Normally I'm very much a builder, so I like having to adapt my ways to survive in this scenario.

Hmmm... Took three cities this time, one from Rebel Leader and two from an opponent and then I got nuked by Rebel Leader. And it's on Warlord even. What's going on?

Has anyone tried extracting the 'Buy Experience' component from the scenario? Im looking through the mod files and cant find it. Would be nice as a stand alone mod

Mercade said:

Hmmm... Took three cities this time, one from Rebel Leader and two from an opponent and then I got nuked by Rebel Leader. And it's on Warlord even. What's going on?

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I have no idea. When I played (on deity) the rebels were quite pathetic because they had no money and many of their troops went on strike. Maybe it's somehow easier on the higher difficulty levels.

nullspace said:

I have no idea. When I played (on deity) the rebels were quite pathetic because they had no money and many of their troops went on strike. Maybe it's somehow easier on the higher difficulty levels.

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Could be. I'll have to try it on a higher difficulty level (although not quite deity, thank you very much) because I also think the AI playing the other factions will be more aggressive on higher difficulty and so I won't be the only one taking on the rebels.

I agree with mercade, i tried playing on noble and got the same result: took 4 cities from rebel leader and killed one of the AI, then rebel leader came at me with a relentless army and smashed me. I don't think any of the other AI had even captured one city.

I also agree with Mercade ... having difficulty with the Rebels focusing on me, and the other AI for some reason don't go after the Rebels at all any more. I'm not sure if this is a change with the latest patch (313) because before I patched, the AI very aggressively went after Rebel territory and it was a big land grab, after which a nice battle between whoever was left. Now, post-patch, the Rebels get a couple of nukes right away and hurl both at me, while in the meantime the AI seems to just be twiddling its thumbs, not trying to expand NOR going after any nukes. Odd.

I was enjoying this one pre-patch but now it's just frustrating.

emilie,
what level were you playing pre and post patch? i did not play this scerieno until after installing the patch so i don't know if it made the AI less aggressive. Others seem to be suggesting the it is the difficulty level that makes the difference but perhaps you are right that it was the patch. Any one else had similar experiences?

both pre- and post-patch i've been playing on Noble/Normal... another factor seems to be which faction you are playing... if I play as the Eastern guys, the Rebels get nukes right away and annihilate me, even if I'm completely passive towards them... whereas if I play as, for example, Yulika Ibatova (just guessing on the name there, I'm sure I didn't get it right) the Rebels don't seem to go for the nukes right away, nor do they seem to fortify their cities as rabidly. It's odd. (When I play as the eastern guys, when I try to take over a rebel city they send their entire force there to fortify, it seems, and it's an ugly battle with heavy casualties on both sides just to get one city.) Whereas when I play as YI, I can just go around and pick off a bunch of the rebel cities right off the bat. It seems oddly imbalanced after the patch. Not sure why. And I realize it may just be purely coincidence too... I've only tried playing as those two, so maybe I'll try someone else and see how the Rebs behave.

ETA: forgot to reiterate the thing about the other AI behavior though... why don't they go against the Rebs any more? They seem to just sit there and do nothing now.

So I've tried a few more test games... and though there's nothing in the Patch notes that suggests changes were made to AI behavior in this regard, it certainly seems as though the Rebels now focus solely on annihilating me with nukes, even if I have not attacked them in any way, whereas the other AIs can tool around in Rebel territory, take nukes, etc, with no response from the Rebs. This just seems unfair and unrealistic.

Is getting nuked (and recovering from that) just a basic part of this scenario now? Since the other AI don't seem to be going after the Rebs any more, it seems that it's solely up to me to prevent the Rebs from getting nukes (impossible) or to just accept that I will be nuked, and make sure I have enough cities by that time that I can continue playing.

I do think it's really lame that I can sit there passively, doing NOTHING but building infrastructure, and I get nuked immediately after the Rebs get their launch codes. I've always suspected that the AI goes after the player in a far more aggressive manner than the other AIs, even on Noble level, but this seems ridiculous.

ETA: obviously sitting there doing nothing is not a viable strategy; it was simply a test to see if the Rebs are programmed to nuke me no matter what. They are.

have you tried playing on a harder level as others suggested. this might make the other AI more aggressive toward the rebels. the only time i played i was moscow and i had the rebels attack and nuke me while the other AI pretty much sat around with their thumbs up their butts. I really don't think that this scenario is suppose to work like that. I also do'nt think that it should be solely up to the human to prevent the rebels from having nukes. how is that possible with nukes spread all over the board. it would take 20 turns just to find them and move your army in position.

graves_09 said:

i had the rebels attack and nuke me while the other AI pretty much sat around with their thumbs up their butts. I really don't think that this scenario is suppose to work like that. I also do'nt think that it should be solely up to the human to prevent the rebels from having nukes.

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I agree with both points. I have this weird feeling that this scenario is sort of "broken" for me now on Noble/Normal for some reason. Why aren't the other AI doing anything? Pre-patch they were all over the map, exploring, attacking, etc. They were constantly bugging me to open borders so that they could attack more Rebs. I wonder is there a setting I need to "re-set" after the patch, or a new setting I'm unaware of that has changed the AI behavior?

I can try playing on a harder level though I'm not optimistic, since Noble is about all I can handle at this stage of my Civ skills.

ETA: Okay, I'm playing one level "harder" now and it's soooo much easier! Doesn't make any sense. AI is weaker, stupider; I can build faster, etc. Maybe this scenario is just "broken" on Noble for some reason.

If you guys think this is a bug, you should post it in the bugs forum too. Rumor has it there is going to be another patch 'some day'.

Problem is, I really don't know if it's a bug.

I just finished (lost) a game because Rebs completed nuclear arsenal, which doesn't surprise me since it's apparently up to the human player to do everything. It's discouraging to watch the replay at the end and see that none of the other non-Rebel AIs ever took over even 1 Reb city for the entire game. It's like they literally just sit there and wait to be picked off by the Rebs. Not sure how little old me is supposed to grab and defend at least 4 nukes while also defending against the neverending onslaught of the Rebs, who only increase their numbers and strength as they eat up all the non-Reb AIs, who just sit there and let it happen.

But is this really a bug? Or is this just part of the challenge, the "puzzle" of figuring out how to win this one? (e.g., is the "trick" to take over all the idiotic non-Reb AIs myself before the Rebs do?)

Anyone out there play this scenario and have the non-Rebel AIs actually "try" ? Just curious.

Gah the new patch killed this scenario. First off, 'Rebels' are disorganized armed elements that dont class as a Military district or regional power that can be recognised and thefore spoken with via Diplomacy...

Yet WHY do they power up into super cities filled with Modern Armor and Stealth Bombers... and blatently rape everyone?

I cry.

Okay, If I hadn't been enraged enough already, I'm now on the verge of just throwing my BTS disc into my microwave and zapping it out of sheer frustration and disgust at the stupidity of this scenario.

I just tried a new approach, which only exposed the further idiocy of the non-Rebel AIs and the unfair strength of the Rebel forces. My new approach was to focus solely on churning out units (both through production and purchase), which were then sent out to capture nukes. I left pitifully few/weak units in my cities, gambling that nobody would come and capture them (which they didn't, because the AI is predictably dumb about that.) So I went straight for the nearest nuke and grabbed it. Once armed, I used that nuke to *destroy another nuke* (this in an attempt to prevent the Rebs from winning an arsenal victory, since it seems impossible to do so with troops, as the non-Reb AI make no attempt to grab/defend nukes themselves, and it's physically impossible to get troops to all the nukes before the Rebs.) Without wasting *any* time doing anything else, by turn 94 I had made it to and defended a mere 2 silos and had used both to take out 2 other nukes. (I'm only *assuming* I took them out, since I was unable to verify what was left over as the territory was too far away to do an air recon.) In the same period of time, the Rebs had a) nuked me 3 times; b) destroyed all but 1 of the other non-Reb AI civs; and c) had grabbed and were arming 2 more nukes (and were 5 turns away from one of them, which would have given them Arsenal Victory. It was also apparent that even had I been able to prevent them from getting the Arsenal Victory (god only knows how) by that time I would have been the only non-Rebel civ left on the map and in no way could have defended myself against their forces, at that point having about 1-3 cities (if lucky after all that nuking) against their *entire map* of cities.

What really makes me INSANE is that I was able to verify through air recon, that some of the rebel-held nukes being armed were pitifully defended, often by only 1 unit, just a mere few spaces from a well-fortified non-Reb AI city that could have easily sent out a small force to take the nuke back. But nooooo.... they were too busy... uh... doing what? Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm, reading over my own rant gave me an idea...

Idea for new strategy:

1. churn out troops
2. buy a few air units, use them to hopscotch to other civs; make friends.
3. drop enough troops into their cities to take back/defend the nukes nearest to each city.

The main issue will still be time, and the ability to churn out enough troops to do this before the Rebs come and pound the living crap out of me.

emilie,
are you still playing as noble? you mentioned before that you had more success at higher levels. i was just wondering if you are still having all these problems at higher levels as well. personally i was afraid to try this scenario at a high level because usually i am a noble or lower type player. i think tonight i am going to start broken star on the next level and see if it is easier. If you are not having success with it I would stop trying on noble. i really think it is some sort of bug, especially since you and others have played this pre-3.13 without problem. The AI behavior is not at all typical of a CIV gave especially one that is SUPPOSE to be an aggressive scenario. I am pretty sure this is a bug and not just a challenge by the game designers. After all, they included easy levels so everyone could enjoy the game.

also do nuke still count toward your arsenal victory if they have been used? how many nukes are on the board or does it vary. also do they change positions after each game or do you have some idea where they are in future games.

yeah, i'm still trying on Noble. i know i posted before that it was easier on a higher level, but i think that was just a fluke, or maybe i had better luck that time because of a slightly altered strategy, but ultimately i'm doomed to failure anyway. maybe i'll try it on an *easier* level and see what happens?

re: the nukes

as far as i know, it's always the same number, and the same positions. at least they have been the same for me, whether on Noble or Prince.

my questions about nukes-- if you nuke another nuke, is it destroyed? if you capture a nuke from someone else, does the arming countdown start over? (if so, then the AI cheats because the Rebs suddenly had 3 nukes at like 15, 5 and 5 turns to go or something...) and on the victory page, there's a number of "remaining nukes"... to what does this number refer? nukes that are still under the control of the *neutral* forces?

i'm still planning to try again later with my latest strategy idea... but i've got all-day baby duty today (a 9-month old) so i have to walk away for now if anyone else has any luck, please post! at this point, i'd love to hear of ANY success!