Thank you for welcoming me...
You seem like having origins from FYROM. I don't say this as a bad thing.
I'm just mentioning this coz your reply is (...somehow...) pointing this way...
You're adopting FYROM's thesis', that almost ALL of them are simply lies and misinterpretations of well known ancient texts.
On the other hand you could be a guy doubting everything... That's ok too.
But doubting has its limitations.
Welcome to the forum!
You are mistaken, modern area of the Republic of Macedonia WAS called Macedonia already in Ancient times, following the Roman conquest:
http://www.academia.edu/357647/The_...ges_Defining_Chronology_Geography_and_Factors
Firsrt of all the link you're providing is from a FYROM historian named Jelena Jaric,
Born on 26th of May 1985 in Skopje.
http://ceu.academia.edu/JelenaJaric
You really presenting this to me as a reliable source?
No, this is
not accepted.
The
"expert scientists" of Skopje (now that's a Macedonian name for a city as all of their cities; Delčevo, Kočani, Probištip, Štip
) who are leading this idiotic, unhistorical sad farce, these guys are proposing (among other
idiocies) that the ancient Macedons were speaking SLAVIC
for God's sake. HAving ZERO (0) evidences.
Nothing!! Like saying the Marsians visited Earth last evening.
A complete emptyness of evidences,
and while EVERYTHING has been found that is of the Macedons was/is written in greek.
So territory where this modern country is located is called Macedonia at least as long as Palestine is called Palestine.
No, that's not true.
You are talking about the Roman provinces of the Common Era (CE), as the text you provide is
clearly stating,
while I'm talking of the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia of Alexander the Great, his father's Philip and even the one of Alexander the 1st.
As you understand there's a close to
a whole 1000 years time period between this and the Roman provinces.
Besides all that, even if the Romans included Paeonia to their Macedonian province, they only did it for
their own ease.
You understand that a province which is including many different territories, it will be named from the one that is d
ominating the others.
How could they call it?
"Roman Province of Paeonia" which just happens to include the
"insignificant" region of Macedonia?
They named the whole province after Macedonia. It was a one way road naming it as that.
Yet this doesn't mean that;
1. the Romans by including Paeonia to their province of Macedonia,
they were refering to Paeonia as to the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia,
which they ALREADY KNEW it didn't include Paeonia (read Strabo and Livy bellow). They were two distinct
historical regions within one province, one dominating the other.
2. it also does not mean that the conquerers of this region (
Romans, Slavs, Ottomans)
apply to
any tradition
or ancient culture, which is refering to the Paeones or to the Macedones.
These can't be ignored; and they are indeniable proofs that the Romans
of course KNEW which is Macedonia and which Paeonia;
Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo.
Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or the Slavic
"Vardar") River.
The message is clear; Paeonia and Macedonia were (still are) two distinct and different regions.
Let me remind you here that these people are OUTRAGEOUSLY claiming (TODAY) to be Alexander's descendants !!
Everything we'll discuss here, has to be based on this (UNHISTORICAL) claim by their side.
The Paeones were not Macedons and most certainly they were not Slavs.
The Slavs with their arrival the
7th AD, pushed away the inhabitants of Paeonia, whoever they were, and took over this region.
They themselves (the Slavs)
NEVER claimed that they were living in Macedonia nor that they are Macedons,
until their descendants did it some decades ago.
NONE of the conquerers of this region EVER claimed that they are Macedons,
from the times the Romans first stepped foot, until more than 17 centuries later, after the Balkan Wars the early 20th century.
It was a Bulgarian idea of the early 20th century. The Bulgarians having their eye on this region, attempted to name Paeonia to Macedonia with the nowadays results.
Also we HAVE to take into account that Alexander himself was refering to Paeonia as
"FOREIGN LANDS",
refering to the Paionians soldiers as
"foreign troops" coming from the
CONQUERED "foreign lands", meaning
NOT Macedonian lands;
Alexander the Great, addressing to his troops before the battle of Issus (Arrian,
"Alexander´s anabasis", 2.a7)
"...There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours.
They will be fighting for pay - and not much of it at that.
We, on the contrary, SHALL FIGHT FOR GREECE, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe…"
Paeonians as from Paeonia; the land of the self-declared "Република Македонија / Republika Macedonjia" is settled by 100% and which was NEVER EVER Macedonia,
no matter if the Romans included Paeonia in the same province with Macedonia, under the name "Macedonia",
they were two distinct regions.
IMPORTANT NOTE;
I also should mention here that in the self-declared
"Република Македонија / Republika Macedonjia" as a whole,
there's
NOT ONE archaeological finding, proving permanent inhabitation of the Macedons on this region.
NOT EVEN A TRACE.
Only exception to that is the ancient greek city of Heraclea Lyngistis (the Slavic
"Bitola"),
which is settled a few miles from the greek borders, and got within Yugoslav territory
after the Balkan Wars Treaties.
So, this
Palestine is a name given to Israel by the Romans, just like Macedonia is the name given to Paeonia by the Romans.
doesn't really mean anything...
But you forget that large part of modern population of Vardar Macedonia (i.e. FYROM) originate from Aegean Macedonia, which is now part of Greece.
I would avoid using this term if I were you.
There's no place named "Aegean Macedonia".
It was the
Nazis the early
1940s who named this region after this name.
They were planning to pass it to their at the time allies the Yugoslavs. When J.Tito decided to go to war against Axis
this region was givven by the Nazis to the Bulgarians (not for long).
The Nazis distibuted large territories to all their local allies (Italians, Bulgarian). Yugoslavs and Bulgarians always wanted a way to the Aegean Sea.
Today the radical-right ultranationalistic propagadists of the
"Република Македонија / Republika Macedonjia", unearthed this
"made in Nazis" OFFENSIVE and
FAULSE term, and they unhistorically are using it against Greece.
There's no place or term with this name in Global Geography NOR in Global History.
Greek government deported majority of Slavs from Aegean Macedonia during first decades of the 1900s. They settled in Bulgaria and Vardar.
So many people who now live in Vardar Macedonia, have ancestors who lived in Aegean Macedonia - including areas around Salonica.
AGAIN;There's no place named "Aegean Macedonia".
It was the Nazis the early 1940s who named this region after this name,
planning to pass it ti the Yugoslavs ans finally passing it to the Bulgarians.
There's no place or term with this name in Global Geography NOR in Global History.
So? There were
Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Jews too (among the Greeks).
...And why
NONE of the people with ethnicities above
NEVER claimed to be
"Macedonians"?
You are forgetting that the Slavs remained after the Ottomans conquered this region,
and also the people with the ethnicities above remained too.
The greek government after the Balkan Wars, didn't just pushed away those people.
Greece complied to the Treaties signed by all sides, as all countries did.
You should see how Bulgaria, Turkey and Yogoslavia treated the greeks.
The Turks gifted the greeks two genocides.
Same thing tried the Bulgarians, who though they tried hard (killing tens of thousands of greeks), they missed the term
"genocide" by an inch.
So the greeks got pushed away by Turks, Bulgarians and Yugoslavs too, as you should have known.
This is known as
"exchange of population", and it always follow wars between neighbors.
MORE IMPORTANTLY - Slavic language of inhabitants of Macedonia has been called "Macedonian language" at least since year 1603 (link):
The so-called
"Macedonian language" (an actula joke) is among the
South Slavic Languages and therefor is only
"Macedonian" in paper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages
The Macedons were and still are speaking Greek (
undeniable proven fact).
As all know
languages are being followed (accompanied) and defined by their alphabets.
Two examples of Cyrillic alphabets:
Russian (Cyrillic Alphbet): А а, Б б, В в, Г г, Д д, Е е, Ё ё, Ж ж, З з, И и, Й й, К к, Л л, М м, Н н, О о, П п, Р р, С с, Т т, У у, Ф ф, Х х, Ц ц, Ч ч, Ш ш, Щ щ, Ъ ъ, Ы ы, Ь ь, Э э, Ю ю, Я я.
So-called "Macedonian" (aka
CYRILLIC Alhabet) А а, Б б, В в, Г г, Д д, Ѓ ѓ, Е е, Ж ж, З з, Ѕ ѕ, И и, Ј ј, К к, Л л, Љ љ, М м, Н н, Њ њ, О о, П п, Р р, С с, Т т, Ќ ќ, У у, Ф ф, Х х, Ц ц, Ч ч, Џ џ, Ш ш.
The Cyrillic Alphabet was introduced (first found) during the
9th century AD , just 1000 years ago, by two Greek monks, in order to help the SLAVS who until then had no alphabet.
The Greek alphabet that the ancient Macedons were using first introduced during around the
9th Century Before Christ (2,900 years ago).
So again; As all know
languages are being followed (accompanied) and defined by their alphabets.
The ancient Macedon alphabet (aka
GREEK alphabet and most certainly NOT Cyrillic):
Α, Β, Γ, Δ, Ε, Ζ, Η, Θ, Ι, Κ, Λ, Μ, Ν, Ξ, Ο, Π, Ρ, Σ, Τ, Υ, Φ, Χ, Ψ, Ω.
Do your own comparisons;
ancient Macedon text (5th BC) before Koine Greek ;
"...ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ..."
So contrary to what you claim - these people didn't start to be called Macedonians recently. They are called Macedonians already for centuries.
If you've read the above, you'll know this is
absoloutely wrong.
Yet read this once more;
Elisabeth Barker
[
The Royal Institute of International Affairs, year 1950, p.10 ]
"...All that can safely be said is that during the last eighty years many MORE seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria (she reports about the people of the Former Yugoslav Republic region which Josef Tito started calling "Macedonia" the 1950s), than have considered themselves Serbian, or closely linked to Serbia (or Yugoslavia). Only the people of the Skoplje region, in the north west, have ever shown much tendency to regard themselves as Serbs.
There is NO DOUBT that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own (from the proto-Slavic language)..."
Even your "most respected geneticist" Cavalli-Sforza shows, that Greeks are most closely related (genetically) to Yugoslavians (including Macedonians):
http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/greek-dna.html
As you know genetics is a recently emerged science, which rapidly evolves. In my previous comment I presented a research conducted by several institutions, which is a very recent one, and has never been in dispute.
"The History and Geography of Human Genes" by Cavalli-Sforza etc was written in 1994.
Yet besides that, this http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/greek-dna.html
which you provided as a proof that; "...Greeks are most closely related (genetically) to Yugoslavians (including Macedonians)..."
is only a presentetion of many different researches, and it is
CLEARLY STATING (I quote);
-Greeks are closest to Italians,
-Vardar Slavs cluster very close to Bulgarians
-Greeks cluster with other North-European and South-European populations (like Italians) and are close to the Basques (Ayub).
-Greeks cluster genetically with 41 other Europeans populations tested. Greeks were quite different genetically from Mexicans, Indians and Pakistanis (subcontinent), and southeast Asians (Auton).
Let me remind you the long dropped ridiculous Arnaiz-Villena research, which was "proving" the Japanese to be
IDENTICAL to Africans, Greeks to Africans, Islanders to Congolese. (dropped by this;
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038/415115b ).
This research created a
serious scandal,
forcing the editor of the magazine which published it
to appologize to the readers and scientists and to write to his next editorial;
"...ignore the article in question or preferably physically remove the pages...”
A 2011-2012 DNA research (part of a larger research conducted in the wider Mediterranean area) conducted by several institutions such as the Sranford University, the Russian Academy of Sciences (Moscow), the University of Pavia etc., proved 2-3 years ago, that the DNA of the southern Italians
is indentical to the Greek one, as result of the colonization of Italy by the Greeks in antiquity.
Therefor the scientists of the institutions that participated this research mentioned above, taking into account the well recorded political, economical, social, cultural, military etc. historical data, and using the results of the DNA research, came to the obvious and only logical conclusion that the nowadays greeks are direct descendants of their ancient ancestors.
This research never been in dispute since published.
And please don't forget this;
A 6-year DNA research
conducted by their own "Skopje Forensics Medicine Institute", proved that they relate with the Bulgarians.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society....2&nav_id=78407
The results of this research showed that that
the residents of the self-declared "Република Македонија / Republika Macedonjia" are Slavs;
“...The analysis of the data has showed that residents of Macedonia have the most similar DNA with Bulgarians and Serbs, Croats with Bosnian and Serbian population while Kosovo Albanians have the fewest similarities with the others.”
Technically, everyone is of African origins.
Ok... Yet today this has only sentimental value.
Take for example a fish and a horse. Both came from under the seas,
and then evolution appeared.
This is what happened among humans.
Everything has changed and will continue changing, since the times when we were all africans.
was from Africa? Or does this African DNA come from the more distant past, and is it widespread among Europeans? I have no genealogy records to go from, so I am at a loss.
in year 2000 U.S. census.
