ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

Pre-Game Thread
ALC 18 First Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2825 BC
Round 2: 2825 BC to 825 BC
Round 3: 825 BC to 65 BC
Round 4: 65 BC to 640 AD
Round 5: 640 AD to 1310 AD
Round 6: 1310 AD to 1460 AD
Round 7: 1460 AD to 1710 AD
Round 8: 1710 AD to 1838 AD
Round 9: 1838 AD to 1938 AD
Round 10: 1938 AD to July, 1950 AD
Postmortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Isabella, leader of Spain. I'm playing the game using the new Beyond the Sword expansion pack. The difficulty level is Emperor, the map is Fractal, and the speed is Epic. The game is being played with Solver's unofficial patch for BtS, including the fix that prevents the building of Military Academies before they're actually functional (with Military Science).

Yes, it's time to move up a level. And Isabella again? Well, the first ALC 18 game ended with the Apostolic Palace win, which was, frankly, cheesy as all get-out. Granted, it was a very high score, but there are better, more honourable ways to win. Furthermore, we never got to see Spain's unique unit or unique building in action, so that's the aim of this game. Since both UU and UB lend themselves to war, that's what we'll be looking to do, aided by Isabella's Spiritual trait for adopting "war civics" in a flash. I foresee a domination win by Spain's holy crusaders.

Here are all of the game settings:



And here is a look at the starting position:



Heh, that's funny. I passed up a start with gold in the capital's BFC in the previous Isabella game because it was at Monarch level. Well, this is Emperor, kids, and I'll need all the help I can get. The flood plains and grassland river tile(s?) look good for cottages, there's a couple of hills for production, piggies for food, several forests for chopping, an empty grassland tile that may hold a strategic resource--I think it's a no-brainer to settle in place. Oh, and a lake, if we want to research an early religion right off the bat. Gotta love Spain-on-a-lake.

The Warrior could pop that hut once Madrid is founded, or leave it for a border pop. I think the first build should be a Worker to mine the gold, but that would require researching Mining first rather than a religious tech. Then again, religion was the focus of the previous Isabella game. If we want a religion, we could probably easily get Judaism once the gold is on-line. Whaddya think--go for the faith or go for the gold?

Keep in mind this is a fractal map, so there's a chance that we're isolated. That would mean a priority on the naval techs in order to see Isabella's armies in action. I didn't have this map checked for isolation because, well, this is a juicy-lookin' start. Besides, Isabella's UU and UB show up late enough that we should be able to still get some use out of them even if we have to cross a body of water to do it.

Isabella tells me she thought the previous win was cheesy as well. Not enough bloodshed for our girl's taste. We aim to fix that this time. Lock and load, gang, Izzy's goin' huntin'.

Crusades!!!

Oops already said that.

Messy - oceans to the north east, northwest, and south west, with no way to be coastal AND get both the pigs and the gold? Hmmm....

I'd probably begin by moving the warrior east to the hill - it looks to me like there's a decent military pump/seaport over there which might be powered by the pigs, if you could get the capital out of the way. If the terrain did in fact support that idea, the big question would be whether to move the settler to the coast.

The best you can hope for is that you'll move to the rivermouth, find some fish (only 1, since it is outside your fat cross), and can settle on turn one. The downside would be something that would tempt you to move twice on the first turn, then not pan out - as you would lose another turn returning to the lake, and would found the city on turn three.

Given that it is emperor, I'm totally sympathetic with "don't try to get cute, just survive".


If I'm doing the math right, the quality of your current location should be about the same (relative to the other civs) as you see on Monarch.

way to go on restarting with the higher settings.. good luck with emperor!!

settle in place.. you cannot afford to waste turns here. mining and BW asap.. hope for copper in the blank grasslands spot.

you don't nessessarily need a worker first, i'd build a warrior while researching mining off that lake.

might want to think really hard about going for the great wall.. the espionage kick from a great spy may save your ass when the ai starts teching hard. 3-5 free techs is nothing to sneeze at. if you're thinking of going this way i'd go

mining, bw, masonry, wheel, pottery, writing, alphabet. if you can get to animal husbandry before the first great spy spits out then great otherwise just cottage over the flood plains it should be enough growth.

the great wall can be built in a mightily short 4 wood chops without stone and will payoff huge for you later. fits right in with the espionage bonuses from running the UB.. the inquisition has to get its information from somewhere

capitol looks like it has great potential to be a wall street city and corporation headquarters.

NaZ

Yay! Excellent decision. Crusades! I'm expecting the Spanish Inquisition!

Really nice starting spot with the gold, flood plains, piggies, lots and lots of forests, a lake and enough hills for production. The chance of a hidden resource on the grassland is mighty high because there aren't any other spots available for hidden resources.

Good luck on emperor.

Thanks for starting over. Looking forward to the Inquisition.

I vote for settling in place, mainly because Emperor scares me to death, and I want every turn of production I can get. The problem I have with moving around is that I sometimes end up missing hidden resources the map generator gods have given me.

Getting a religion would seem to be worthwhile. Your happy cap is 4 on Emperor, yes? State Religion + Temple makes that 6, gold makes it 7. You can get all that pretty quickly, and expansive means you can get Madrid up to max size early.

I don't know whether the AI will beat you to Polytheism on Emperor if you work the lake tile, but if you can get it, go for it. Having the Code of Laws slingshot ready in your back pocket won't hurt either, just to make sure you get a religion. That means researching something like:

*Polytheism
*Mining
*Bronze Working
*Agriculture
*Animal Husbandry
*Wheel
*Pottery
*Priesthood
*Writing
*Monarchy -- my guess is you'll be in Hereditary Rule most of the game ...

... and building Warriors right off the bat for scouting until BW is on the horizon, then worker timed to complete with BW. With the lake and floodplains, you may be size 3 before you start your worker. **EDIT** I did the math ... to get the worker and BW out at the same time, you'll still be size 2, assuming you still work the lake and a floodplain for +3 total commerce ...

How are you gonna just buy BtS and use Isabella twice in a row?

Boooooooorrrrrriiiiiinggggg!

settle in place, leave the hut until border pop, tech: Agriculture(or hunting)-> AH->mining->BW. build: worker->warrior (or scout)->settler when size 3

Go for the gold and then for christianity!

Then it is crusade time!

Kudos to make a real Isabella try and for moving up to Emperor.

Settling in place is a no-brainer.

lol I didn't think you'd take my idea...

I don't really see the point in moving... Looks like you'll lose more then you'll gain and do you really need to be on the coast? Assuming if you do move and lose a couple of turns that goldmine should be able to keep you on Par on the teching side but I'd advise against moving and settle in place.

Screw Religion, you're ongoing to War and ultimately domination anyways, with Izzy's UU & UB, you'll steam roll over everyone and capture those Holy Cities, besides do you really wanna delay that war by a few turns just to found a religion? you have gold for a nice early increase in your Capital so you should have at least 6 Happy Faces.

My tech order would be... hmm

Either

Mining => Bw => Arg => AH => Wheel

OR

Mining => Arg => AH => BW => Wheel

Depends on how much that worker has to do before Chopping or if you require it Whipping.

Well Goldmine Capital means Expensive Tech Oracle Slingshot Why not take the risk??? well the risk is a lot lower since you have a High Commerce tile to help you power through the tech tree in the early game.

Let's have a look at the Possible Slingshots

Theology requires Mono and Masonry

Since the Cheesy Religious Victory... I don't really want it anymore... but it's nice for Holy crusades and the Military Civic Theocracy is nice too. Opens up Divine Right and Paper

Machinery Requires MC

Probably the most risky slingshot but is does open up an early Engineering Beeline for you UB and highly promoted Siege units, the Crossbows are just a nice extra, although if you're next to Rome you may want to consider this one.

It's also on your way to MC so those early forges will be nice fore Increase Happy cap from Gold and nice early production, their quite expensive though so you may want to Switch to Organized religion before building them. The Colossus is nice also depends on the map but also I can see a lot of coast near your Capital.

Construction requires Maths and Masonry

Definitely worth the Effort if you have Ivory nearby and quickly rush someone with Cats and Phants, but remember Phants need HBR... well at least you can build stables for Level 3 Phants, also open up Engineering.


The next two Techs are the ones I'd most probably pursue

Fuedalism Require Monarchy and Writing

Why? well It's on your way to Monarchy to raise that Happy cap, it also opens up Serfdom for speedy workers and since your Spiritual you can switch between Serfdom and Slavery quite easy and with Expansive Spamming workers is no problem, your Verticle Expansion will blow the AIs away. Not to mention Longbows for protection no body in their right mind will touch you untill with high loses until Cats and Vassalage helps for an Early war.

You can also attempt a Longbow Rush just for fun but only if the situation and opportunity is right, eg -no metal and close neighbour. (Opens up CS)

And The other tech is??? yes you guessed it. ( or maybe not)

Philosophy require COLs

I love this beeline with Gandhi... I swear it's overpowered with him Producing all those early GS just shoots you into the future while everyone else is still in the stone age.

Why this one? Well you're on your way to COLs so it opens up two key SE techs Caste System and Pacifism, I'm not saying you should play SE... this is for the sake of producing Great People Super fast early (even if you're not Gandhi) Probably using those scientist for Academies and Settling them (The AI tech a lot slower now so those bulb techs aren't used for trading anyways) COLs courthouses also help with Rexing and Horizontal Expansion like in the previous thread

You also get a Leg up on the Liberalism Race and ultimately UU. (open up Nationalism)

That's pretty much it I can't think of anything else... you could try something different and try a Slingshot for one of those artistic Techs like Literature and Drama but maybe not with Isabella, I've done it with With Industrious leaders though when I was wonder spamming my capital for National Epic and GL lol.

Settle in place, work the freshwater lake for Hinduism while building a warrior. Then research AH and Mining while building a worker. That's how I'd play it. I generally hate moving around on the first turn.

Yay for another take at Izzy!

If you want to go for Hindu here you can work the lake first, then switch to the gold tile once your borders expand. It's 3 commerce per turn being near a river, right?

Well done on your win with Isabella on monarch with the AP. You've taken the step up to Emperor to showcase Isabella's UB and UU and that's great.

I like the idea that you're going for Judaism and then Christianity. That has ramifications for your tech path.

You would appear to be at the northwest promontory of your landmass. The coast is close by which means that if you settle in place, to exploit any sea resources, your new cities would have fearsome overlap with your capital.

I agree with VoU about the move of the warrior IE. I'd move the settler onto what appears to be the coastal floodplain and settle, if on the coast. The warrior would then have to pop the hut.

Techwise: Mining-BW-Wheel-Polytheism-Priesthood -Masonry-Monotheism -Writing-Sailing-Monarchy (aimiing to found Judaism, bulb theology to found Christianity and the Feudalism slingshot frm the Oracle for the civics until research Hunting + Archery other techs to acquire:Animal Husbandry HBR meditation.

If we slingshot CoL form Oracle we'll found confucianism, which we don't want to do.

Builds: couple of workboats, workers, settlers, warriors and Temples. Barracks, Walls Lighthouse, Granary and Lbrary. I'd start with a worker, too

Wonders: Oracle, maybe ToA, GW, Gr Light and Pyramids

I've never seen a longbow rush and somehow I can't see Sisiutil needing to use one.

I must admit to making a dangerous assumption. usually Izzy has plenty of company of the aggressive or protective REXing sort. This time I am going for a relatively isolated start that will allow 6-8 cities before you run into anyone.

Good luck, Sisiutil!

Congratulations Sisiutil for starting over, that's a true gamer's spirit!
I'm doing first steps on Emperor as well (won cultural victory once with Bismarck in Warlords but had reload few times), so I'm all excited to see how this round will go.
Also, in previous Izzy game it was a huge shame that You didn't had any stone, now You might be more lucky. It's a pain building all these walls/castles, when one has stone it's a matter of few turns = every city can enjoy increased defence, espionage and trade route bonus from citadels.

With gold in hand I'd think of getting metal casting, additional bonus from gold for forges and increased production, not to mention that path to Engineering is closer. Yup, MC looks like it's worth effort, maybe even Oracle slingshot??

P.S. Settle in place of course

Definitely settle in place and pop the hut right away.

FYI from last thread: in BtS, owning the shrine to your state religion no longer automatically gives you free visability. It instead gives you a 40% discount to espionage missions... including passive missions like city visibility. On the down side, you have to invest espionage points in order to regain that ability, but founding an early religion and spreading it is more powerful, overall, for that reason.

And so, I'd research polytheism first, while building a warrior to double your number of scouts. If you get Hinduism, that's great, otherwise it's on the path to Judaism. You definitely want to get your foot in the door with respect to early religions.

When you reach size two, finish the warrior by working the gold tile, which will give you two hammers and two gold, while researching mining. When you start the worker, move the citizen on the lake to one of the forested grassland tiles to take advantage of Expansion's trait. Animal Husbandry to take advantage of the pigs, bronze working to do some chopping and whipping, and pottery for cottages and granery.

Yore gonna need something for the worker to do. Going the religious path isnt a good idea on this level.

I would build a warrior to size 2, then switch to a worker.
In order for the city to grow...you need food. The pigs are a big part of that growth. Animal Husbandry should be a priority. And guess what, Agriculture makes AH cheaper.
Research Agriculture, worker completes and farms the flood plains.....mining completes and he steps right on the gold mine.....its like butter.

Going Animal Husbandry after Agriculture sounds good...but, I would still go mining, BW...then AH. The 2 farms from the floodplains will be enough food till you get a settler out and you need mining for the gold and BW for the chopping.

To all the people that are encouraging the religious path from (ie poly), Ill lay good money that Sisiutil goes the worker tech route. Starting with Fishing and Myst and not coastal...is begging for worker techs and not Meditation or Poly. Getting the gold not only online...but able to be worked and STILL GROWING requires food.

Someone mentioned chopping the Great Wall...I agree with that 100%. Not having to worry about barbs and getting a head start on spy points is nice.

My tech path would be:

Agriculture
Mining
BW
AH
Masonry
Wheel
Poly
Mono....you may or may not get Judaism. If you get the gold workable early enough, you should be fine. If you have barb problems because you skipped the Great Wall, you could delay wheel. Masonry and AH can be switched depending on where copper is.

<-- Monarch Player .... Can anyone give us an idea of what to expect at Emperor?

slobberinbear said:

<-- Monarch Player .... Can anyone give us an idea of what to expect at Emperor?

Click to expand...

Emperor isn't so bad. Honestly, in BtS, it's probably as hard as Monarch in Warlords. I moved up because I was crushing the first BtS Monarch games I played. Now, I'll lose sometimes, but it's because I'm a builder and you need military early to keep the AI's off your back. I trust the gang here will make sure Sisiutil's power rating stays high.

One thing I hate about the new map generator is the trend of starting you off on a lake and have the rivers fall 1 tile short of the starting spot. So now you have to build a road to hook up the gold for the +1 and it means later in the game you can't build a Levee.

Nice to see you leveling up, Sisiutil! It's an inspiration to all of us, lower level players, to keep trying catch up with you! When you moved to Monarch, I moved to Prince. Now you move to Emperor and I'm trying to move to Monarch... Nice timing!

Nice to see Isabella again, besides those who think it's boring. Her last game was an "All Leaders Cheese", as someone else pointed out.

Good luck with this!
And, regarding the game.. I'm from Emperor too, so I agree with slobberinbear: go to the safe route and settle in place.

Ok, back to the shadows!