SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

mabraham said:

I think the 100 settler gets three turns of 17 net production T71-3 which must put it into the zone that can be 2-whipped for 60 T74. This is important because we want that settler to plant T77 on the silver site, to sync with the whip in Stone City. The chop of the spice that finishes T74 has to happen to open up the movement possibility, but we don't need it to go to the settler. The monster overflow on T75 can go to warrior, library, Pyramids - whatever we end up choosing.

Click to expand...

You are right, the whip must be available on t74. The Settler has already 56/100 hammers. I just checked my end of turn 74 save; I must have been repulsed by the idea of whipping when the Settler can be built in 2t organically via help from the chop.

I'll rework that part of the PPP to overflow into The Pyramids and maybe throw in a Worker or other whip to overflow into The Pyramids; its the best way to get whipped hammers into a wonder, assuming one isn't rushed to complete it and has other useful things to whip.

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham said:

Can you WorldBuilder proof that this is possible? I'm happy to discuss possibilities that can really happen, or did happen, but not pure conjecture

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Yes, the test save that shulec provides has a Shore plot 1-S of the Shore plot we sign posted in the real game and suspect is a Galley route to the West. The southern of the two Shore plots has no land adjacent to it when viewed from WorldBuilder. I fixed that plot in my test game at one point, but I'm not sure it survived my difficulties with Gems City's Food.

If we can make such a mistake in our test game, it is plausible that the scenario designer could have made the same mistake and did not detect it before release.

Sun Tzu Wu

bcool said:

I assume you take into account that we haven't finished writing yet with this plan.

Click to expand...

oops. Edited to reflect that I was cheating

bcool said:

Re: bureaucratic capital thoughts
mid-term to long-term planning thoughts
It might be worth moving the capital to gems city eventually and setting that up to be a bureaucracy capital. It has the gems and would get 2 extra trade routes compared to the current capital location. It would possibly increase or decrease our maintenance depending on how we expand.

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Meh... we lose the river , and a pile of hammers for the palace, and have fewer cottage tiles. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

mabraham said:

It took me about three minutes to find post 705 and 747 and the intermediate discussion. Sorry for the wrong guess on the post number. Setting the forum to show 50 posts per page and text searching for "mountain" makes the search fast. Using the "Thread Tools" drop-down box might even have been faster!

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All I can see is a 1F1C plot 2-SW of where you want to settle the Cultural Bridge city in the South. There must be land 2 tiles orthogonally from it, but it can't be our land. However, I still don't understand how you can know this land has a peak on it. Surely, it can be any kind of land plot, flat, hill or peak.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any of your explanations lucid, until I looked at post #747 which at least had the clue of 1F1C plots appearing only (2 plots) orthogonally from land. I still find the conclusion of that the cause must be a mountain quite mysteriously mystical.

Sun Tzu Wu

Re: bureaucratic capital thoughts
mid-term to long-term planning thoughts
It might be worth moving the capital to gems city eventually and setting that up to be a bureaucracy capital. It has the gems and would get 2 extra trade routes compared to the current capital location. It would possibly increase or decrease our maintenance depending on how we expand.

Meh... we lose the river , and a pile of hammers for the palace, and have fewer cottage tiles. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Click to expand...

Gems has more food ( I think +13 food at pop 4 after lighthouse and calendar and a lake we might want to work after the lighthouse) while the capital has 11 after irrigation-and using one cottageable land for the farm to irrigate the corn) The two extra trade routes could easily be 6+ free commerce since our capital gets the best foreign trade routes. The 8 tiles of river commerce won't necessarily be worked for some time to come in the current capital.
Gems has 3 grassland tiles for cottages and 3 grass hill tiles. Reasonable amount of cottagable land for a hopefully ~1200 AD finish. Extra pop can be scientists under represention and presumed academy.
Building a new Capital is only 160 hammers (not that much really)

All I can see is a 1F1C plot 2-SW of where you want to settle the Cultural Bridge city in the South. There must be land 2 tiles orthogonally from it, but it can't be our land. However, I still don't understand how you can know this land has a peak on it. Surely, it can be any kind of land plot, flat, hill or peak.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any of your explanations lucid, until I looked at post #747 which at least had the clue of 1F1C plots appearing only (2 plots) orthogonally from land. I still find the conclusion of that the cause must be a mountain quite mysteriously mystical.

Click to expand...

the picture in the spoiler of this post shows the peak.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10855076&postcount=705
It is visible with the normal camera at the right angle/zoom

nothing mystical about that picture

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Yes, the test save that shulec provides has a Shore plot 1-S of the Shore plot we sign posted in the real game and suspect is a Galley route to the West. The southern of the two Shore plots has no land adjacent to it when viewed from WorldBuilder. I fixed that plot in my test game at one point, but I'm not sure it survived my difficulties with Gems City's Food.

If we can make such a mistake in our test game, it is plausible that the scenario designer could have made the same mistake and did not detect it before release.

Click to expand...

Yes, such is possible, and could taint our belief of the existence of a western galley route, were it not for the screenshot in 977 showing actual land there.

A shore-vs-ocean glitch is not a possible alternative hypothesis for either of our observations to the south - there must be land there.

I'm going stop spending my time discussing whether land exists. There's no evidence to the contrary.

bcool said:

the picture in the spoiler of this post shows the peak.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10855076&postcount=705
It is visible with the normal camera at the right angle/zoom

nothing mystical about that picture

Click to expand...

Sorry, its Mystical to me, because I can't see any Peak in it or in the real game and I've put some effort into trying.

The 1F1C plot where one can't be is sufficient to prove there is land 2 plots orthogonally from that 1F1C plot. There's no way to know the height of the land, but its definitely there unrevealed. Seriously, how can you see land in plots covered by a black unrevealed filter? Must be some sort of mysticism, surely. Mushrooms?

Sun Tzu Wu

bcool said:

Gems has more food ( I think +13 food at pop 4 after lighthouse and calendar and a lake we might want to work after the lighthouse) while the capital has 11 after irrigation-and using one cottageable land for the farm to irrigate the corn) The two extra trade routes could easily be 6+ free commerce since our capital gets the best foreign trade routes. The 8 tiles of river commerce won't necessarily be worked for some time to come in the current capital.
Gems has 3 grassland tiles for cottages and 3 grass hill tiles. Reasonable amount of cottagable land for a hopefully ~1200 AD finish. Extra pop can be scientists under represention and presumed academy.
Building a new Capital is only 160 hammers (not that much really)

Click to expand...

The relevant time frame is 30-50 turns from now, by which time we'll have another border pop and be able to irrigate the corn from the south (or will have settled near the marble). If we're cottaging Washington then we'll be working the sheep, corn, cows and three river grassland cottages ASAP, and that's half the river commerce. Then there's three more grassland, a river grassland hill, a river plains, the silk to cottage (because we have other silk) and two more plains... That's a much bigger machine than the three grassland, three grassland hills and two plains of Gems City, even with the gems and two extra trade routes.

To get that +13 food excess, Gems City has to work deer, wheat, gems, crab, sugar and lake before it starts any cottages. Just deer, wheat, lighthouse-crabs and gems has +11 at size 4. Washington has +10 at size 3 from irrigated corn, sheep and cows. Both can eventually grow to work all their cottageable tiles.

The BFC overlap from south and east can help work up several of those cottage tiles while Washington grows. Admittedly, a city south of spoke sheep could help Gems city, too.

You can see this mountain in the real game if you position the camera appropriately using the normal view - just go far enough south, I think. Here it is, also.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I've wondered whether that plot could be a WorldBuilder mistake by the scenario designer. The clearly observable Shore plot may actually be in reality an Ocean plot with a Shore plot face. I saw one of these in the test game 1-S of the real Shore plot. The test game was showing two shore plots, one matching the real game, and one south of it that was wrong and which I corrected. BTW, excellent test map creation/maintenance, shulec! I found only that single terrain plot error and only eight reveal plot errors (reveal errors are usually trivial in impact).
Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

In the real game, you can clearly see land 3W of the northern most clam, confirming what we expect based on the two commerce coastal tile. Is this an island or part of the next landmass? I don't know.

The test map was cleaned up by mabraham somewhere along the way.

mabraham said:

You can see this mountain in the real game if you position the camera appropriately using the normal view - just go far enough south, I think. Here it is, also.

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You have to zoom in a lot to see it, but it is definitely there. I was just looking for bits of land when I saw it. I about crapped myself when I saw it because it is in the second row of fog.

shulec said:

In the real game, you can clearly see land 3W of the northern most clam, confirming what we expect based on the two commerce coastal tile. Is this an island or part of the next landmass? I don't know.

The test map was cleaned up by mabraham somewhere along the way.

Click to expand...

Yeah I didn't go looking for the shoret glitch, however.

Cities:

Stone City
T70 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T71 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T72 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T73 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T74 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T75 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, oasis)
T76 Settler
T77 whip settler (and give gold mine to silver city)
T78 Settler goes to Southern Cultural site
t78-t80 Work Boat

SC: Eiffel
T70-71 Chop forest 1NW of stone city into TGL
T72-75 Move to forest 2W of Stone city and chop into TGL
T76 move to Desert Hill where Silver City will be built
Gone to Silver City

Washington
t70 Warrior + grow to Pop 5 at +8 Fpt
t71 Work G Sheep + G Corn + PH + RS PH + P Cow
t71-73 Settler
t74 Settler 2P whipped to head for silver site NW-NE-NE, wait for road to be built under it, then N-NE-NE-N to settle T77 and work gold mine. Note that a 1-pop whip is not possible because spice forest chop is 1t too late. It must be a 2-pop whip if we want it or the worker must chop the forest on spices 1t sooner.
T74 Settler Work G Sheep + G Corn + P Cow
T75 The Pyramids for 2t, including 106H overflow + regrowth
T77-78 warrior for MP duty
T78-80 The Pyramids for 3t

SC: Fritz
T70 road incense and stop building road
T71 move to spice
T72-4 chop forest on spice plot
T75 road on tile 1S of rice (after the chop completes)
T76 finish road before settler needs it
t77-78 Road 1-SW on Spices
t79 move onto Silk
t80-81 Road Silk

Gems City
T70 granary
T71 1 pop whip granary - work wheat and gems
T72 Work Boat for Nets or Monument or Warrior; Grow to 3P
T73 Work Boat
T74 Work Boat
T75 Work Boat; Grow to 4P
T76 Work Boat
T77 switch to settler
T78 settler
T79 Whip the settler
T80 Monument in 2t (Work Boat here may be better and Monument at t72)
Note: Settler can get to 1E of horses T83 and can settle there T84
(This is 2t later than bcool suggested due to Monument/Work Boat t72-t76 rather than Warrior t72-t74.)

GC: Karl
T70-T71 Deer camp
T72 finish deer road
T73 move to 1-SW of Gems City
T74-T76 chop forest
T77-t80 Mine G Hill

GP Farm
T70 Finish monument
T71-78 Work Boat T74(?) start working Gmine (want two workboats ASAP)
T72-78 Work Boat - work 1F3H G Mine
Next another workboat

Goodyear
T70-72 mine
T73-4 road
T75 move to 1-NW of GPfarm (prepare to put up a mine anticipating wanting it after we grow fast, and we're killing time before the T81 border pop allows pig improvement)

Siver City
t77 Monument in 8t or less
t78-80 Monument

SC: Effiel
t77-78 Road 1-N G
t79 move 1-N on Silver
t80-81 Road Silver

Research:
T70-72 Writing
T73 50% Writing (again preferably 50% for reduced rounding losses, but depends how things have gone)
T74-80 0% Research Mathematics

Units (those attached to a city appear there):

Warriors
Columbus
T70+ Head to arm to fogbust with workboat Going down which coastline? Northern is more effective, but more risky.
T70 1-SW
T71 1-SW
T72 1-SW onto PF
T73 1-W onto PH Copper
T74 Fortify on PH Copper

Workboat from GemsCity
Fog bust arm by copper. Make sure you identify the optimal position, and consider whether Colombus needs intel this turn or next turn
T70 1-S+2-W (fog bust 1-SE of Copper for 1t)
T71 1-S+2-W (fog bust 1-SE of Horse/Copper city site)
T72 1-SW and stop
T73 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T74 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T75 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T76 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T77 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T78 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T79 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T80 1-SE, 1-NW and stop

Malcolm (1-NW of Ivory) moves 1-NW on T70 (reduced chance of galley spawn)
T70 1-NW
T71-T80 Fortify (Barbarian Galley bust)

New Warrior (Washington)
T71 1-NE
T72 1-NE
T73 1-NE
T74-T80 Stone City garrison

Great Spy
T76 3-W
T77 2-SW
T78 To Gems City
T79 2-W

New Work Boat:
T77 2-S
T78 2-SW
T79 1-S+2-W

Diplomacy:
Accept all open border agreements

Stopping points:
Meet the Wizard
Meet last AI
GLH built
Pyramids built
Alphabet trades available

Note that Malcolm had a fist fight with a Barbarian Warrior, so may may also have that type of issue in the real game. East Witches had Alphabet on t75; Napolean was met t77 and has Alphabet and Iron Working, etc.

Please provide your input.

Sun Tzu Wu

shulec said:

You have to zoom in a lot to see it, but it is definitely there. I was just looking for bits of land when I saw it. I about crapped myself when I saw it because it is in the second row of fog.

Click to expand...

After mabraham showed me where to look, I could clearly see the tip of the Mountain above the Black Unrevealed filter layer (not much of a filter with respect to Peaks), in both the test game and the real game.

However, I still can't see it in any pic that anyone has posted yet.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

After mabraham showed me where to look, I could clearly see the tip of the Mountain above the Black Unrevealed filter layer (not much of a filter with respect to Peaks), in both the test game and the real game.

However, I still can't see it in any pic that anyone has posted yet.

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

I'm glad the informational issue of the land is resolved. Perhaps your screen angle or graphics settings are not sufficient to resolve the edge. I can look at my screen from angles that make it hard to be sure there is a peak where we know that one exists.

It is clear from the functioning of the flying camera trick that the fog is not any kind of opaque after-the-fact filter like perhaps you have been assuming. It's implemented as a fog with actual 3D coordinates. The trees and mountains have coordinates too. Clearly the fog has an altitude lower than the peaks of mountains, so this mountain can be seen. Perhaps the maximum height of the fog should be larger than it is

comments in green

Cities:

Stone City
T70 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T71 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T72 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T73 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T74 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T75 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, oasis)
T76 Settler
T77 whip settler (and give gold mine to silver city)
T78 Settler goes to Southern Cultural site
t78-t80 Work Boat
We have time in stone city to build a library or a worker before Silver city needs a workboat. So I suggest Stone city build a library after the settler
T78-T80 library (especially if we have the capital build a worker with the settler and chop overflow)

SC: Eiffel
T70-71 Chop forest 1NW of stone city into TGL
T72-75 Move to forest 2W of Stone city and chop into TGL
T76 move to Desert Hill where Silver City will be built
T76 finish the road Fritz started for the settler
Gone to Silver City
What exactly will Eiffel be doing for the silver city? I don't think there is much for Eiffel to do until we get a border pop. I suppose he could road to the silver, but perhaps there is something more useful for him to do, like prechop a forest for the capital.
T77 move to forest 1S1W of the rice
T78 prechop
T79 prechop
T80 road


Washington
t70 Warrior + grow to Pop 5 at +8 Fpt
t71 Work G Sheep + G Corn + PH + RS PH + P Cow
t71-73 Settler
t74 Settler 2P whipped to head for silver site NW-NE-NE, wait for road to be built under it, then N-NE-NE-N to settle T77 and work gold mine. Note that a 1-pop whip is not possible because spice forest chop is 1t too late. It must be a 2-pop whip if we want it or the worker must chop the forest on spices 1t sooner.
T74 Settler Work G Sheep + G Corn + P Cow
T75 Why not use the overflow to build a worker instead? This worker could prechop the forests as well. and help the great spy get down the spoke
T75 The Pyramids for 2t, including 106H overflow + regrowth
T76-78? warrior for MP duty
T79-T80? The Pyramids

New worker
T76 road desert 1S of incense for the great spy
T77 road desert (finished I think if test gam is right that it was started)
T78-T80 then returns to prechop forests around Washington edit: OR goes to gems city build mines

SC: Fritz
T70 road incense and stop building road

Why road the incense with this delay turn? I would rather have Fritz move to the spice immediately
T70 move to the spice
T71 road the spice
T72-4 chop forest on spice plot
T75 road on tile 1S of rice (after the chop completes)
T76 finish road before settler needs it (Eiffel can finish this road)
t77-78 Road 1-SW on Spices
T76 move to spice and finish the road (great spy will need it soon)
T77move 1S of the capital
T78 road
T79road (the settler coming to the southern cultural bridge will need it)
T80 prechop
t79 move onto Silk
t80-81 Road Silk

Gems City
T70 granary
T71 1 pop whip granary - work wheat and gemswork the improved deer and wheat--I think the deer and wheat are the right call here. There are food bin issues with the granary we are finishing the granary with a fullish food bin, so there is no reason to reduce our food production here. We want max food so we take advantage of the granary asap. This will make up for the lost turn of the gems easily.
T72 Work Boat for Nets or Monument or Warrior; Grow to 3P
T73 Work Boat
T74 Work Boat
T75 Work Boat; Grow to 4P
T76 Work Boat
T77 switch to settler
T78 settler
T79 Whip the settler
T80 Monument in 2t (Work Boat here may be better and Monument at t72)
Note: Settler can get to 1E of horses T83 and can settle there T84
(This is 2t later than bcool suggested due to Monument/Work Boat t72-t76 rather than Warrior t72-t74.)

T72 warrior (at 3 pop here in real game so work deer, wheat and gems)
T73 warrior
T74 1 turn on a lighthouse
T75 Settler (at 4 pop now)
T76 settler (chop finishes)
T77 whip the settler (work deer and wheat I think instead of switch to gems)
T78 library (deer and wheat to regrow to 3 pop next turn)
T79 library (gems, deer, and wheat)
T80 library
This settles the copper/horses on T82. I really don't see the value of the monument in gems since we plan to build a library here eventually. And this city can get a library quite quickly (whipped and timed to overflow into a workboat I assume so the workboat for the crabs is ready when we need it)

GC: Karl
T70-T71 Deer camp
T72 finish deer road
T73 move to 1-SW of Gems City
T74-T76 chop forest
T77-t80 Mine G Hill
T77 road for settler and great spy coming soon
T78 finish road before great spy and settler move through this turn
T79 follow settler and great spy to help set up copper city
T80 continue following the settler

GP Farm
T70 Finish monument
T71-78 Work Boat T74(?) start working Gmine (want two workboats ASAP)
T72-78 Work Boat - work 1F3H G Mine
Next another workboat
Not sure here but I think we grow to 2 pop on silk then work silk and gmine to finish the workboat the same turn borders pop. I wasn't sure if it made sense to slow growth to get the workboat 1 turn before the border pop or if it was even possible
Goodyear
T70-72 mine
T73-4 road
T75 move to 1-NW of GPfarm (prepare to put up a mine anticipating wanting it after we grow fast, and we're killing time before the T81 border pop allows pig improvement)
T75 move to pigs road
T76 road pigs
T77 move 1S1E of pigs and road desert
T78 road desert
T79 road desert
T80 road incense? (so can help with pigs on border pop on T81?)
These roads will help a settler get up to the ivory settling site and I think they will be used before the proposed mine would be

Siver City
t77 Monument in 8t or less working the gold I assume
t78-80 Monument

SC: Effiel
t77-78 Road 1-N G
t79 move 1-N on Silver
t80-81 Road Silver
I think Eiffel has more useful things to do since it will be quite some time before the border pop in silver city. We will have plenty of time to road silver even if Eiffel is 5 turns delayed coming up here

Research:
T70-72 Writing
T73 50% Writing (again preferably 50% for reduced rounding losses, but depends how things have gone)
T74-80 0% Research Mathematics

Units (those attached to a city appear there):

Warriors
Columbus
T70+ Head to arm to fogbust with workboat Going down which coastline? Northern is more effective, but more risky.
T70 1-SW
T71 1-SW
T72 1-SW onto PF
T73 1-W onto PH Copper
T74 Fortify on PH Copper

Workboat from GemsCity
Fog bust arm by copper. Make sure you identify the optimal position, and consider whether Colombus needs intel this turn or next turn
T70 1-S+2-W (fog bust 1-SE of Copper for 1t)
T71 1-S+2-W (fog bust 1-SE of Horse/Copper city site)
T72 1-SW and stop
T73 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T74 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T75 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T76 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T77 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T78 1-SE, 1-NW and stop
T79 1-SW, 1-NE and stop
T80 1-SE, 1-NW and stop

Malcolm (1-NW of Ivory) moves 1-NW on T70 (reduced chance of galley spawn)
T70 1-NW
T71-T80 Fortify (Barbarian Galley bust)

New Warrior (Washington)
T71 1-NE
T72 1-NE
T73 1-NE
T74-T80 Stone City garrison

Great Spy
T76 3-W
T77 2-SW
T78 To Gems City
T79 2-W
My roads changed this but I'm out of time this morning to explain

New Work Boat:
T77 2-S
T78 2-SW
T79 1-S+2-W

Diplomacy:
Accept all open border agreements

Stopping points:
Meet the Wizard
Meet last AI
GLH built
Pyramids built
Alphabet trades available

Note that Malcolm had a fist fight with a Barbarian Warrior, so may may also have that type of issue in the real game. East Witches had Alphabet on t75; Napolean was met t77 and has Alphabet and Iron Working, etc.

Please provide your input.

Click to expand...

I added an attached file, but I'm out of time this morning to perfect it. I screwed up stone city, but I think most of my proposed changes are reflected. I think I screwed up fritz's proposed road 1S of washington too.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Probably caused by WorldBuilder.

I've also verified the issue exists in shulec's recently posted test save as well.

Gems City should have 14/26 food on t70, according to the real game. The test game has 7/26 food on t70.

I will correct the food box in Gems City by making the Wheat a Floods Plains on turn 70 for 2t, so it will grow to Pop 3 on schedule in t71, showing change in t72. I plan to leave it a Flood Plains in t72 surpassing the food box in the real game by 2 food; I will then follow up with a non-irrigated Wheat for 2t; then change it back to irrigated Wheat with matching food boxes in t75.

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

Can we just make the wheat tile into a grassland to see if this fixes it?

I didn't check the real game to see if the same anomoly is there. Did anyone confirm the real game is correct?

I didn't check the real game to see if the same anomoly is there. Did anyone confirm the real game is correct?

Click to expand...

the real game is correct and has 7 more food than the test game I believe.

An easier solution to the test game problem is to make the gems, wheat and deer floodplains and then railroad the gems. This gets us the right food and hammers by T71. Then you remove the floodplains to restore the tiles, remove the railroad, put the forest back on the deer which disappeared when you put a floodplains there.

I wanted to remind everyone about the increased value of techs with trading to a team. I had forgotten about this and it makes bulbing a Great Merchant for Currency and using it for trading a good idea. It may make Alphabet a priority after Mathematics if no one else researches it.