SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Settling on the corn we could have wb in 7 independent of PS.
2*2h (6f) + 4*3H (+8f) growth + 4h. Revolt could be delayed to after first settler or to BW if this is made a priority.
Okay. So how are we going to resolve this impasse? I don't any point in us all doing tests independently, because we don't seem to have any way to compare tests.
 
If there is food 2W of scout, then settle 1W is the best choice (both short term and long term), yes? Or does anyone have another opinion?

EDIT: LC, the computer base the icons on different criteria once you have moved the settler (at least that is how I interpret ZPVs post).

ZPV, do you refer to resources hidden by fog, or resources hidden by advanced techs?
 
But klarius, how do you explain the light showing up for a particular tile one turn, then moving the settler and next turn it doesn't show for that tile any more? Try in on your original test save and you can see what I mean.
The found value is a very complicated function. One component is the distance to the settler, but not in a a straight forward way. Once a city is settled it should get less jumpy, as the distance to the next settlement gets more important.
There is also distance to other civs entering, so them settling can also change things IBT.
 
Edit:
I played a bit around with WB. Putting metal on the tundra hill and under 2N and fur on the ice forest isn't enough to shift the recommendation from 2N to N-NW. Only when I put a food (not metal) resource to the plains 2W of the scout I get the shift.
It also shows up when you delete the wheat and put deer in the forest 2NW of the scout. And also when you replace the copper and horses with aluminum and coal. :crazyeye: Ouch. Actually, if you add the deer, you can delete all three strategic resources and still get it. Looks like that formula is putting a high priority on food, at least on T0.

I think we need to think in terms of what we want with our first city, short- and long-term. Not gamble on resources.
 
Btw, if you guys are waiting for me to finish my PPP, I'm stuck. How are we going to decide where we want to settle?

1. What do we want with our first city?
...a. Do we assume it'll remain our capital and focus long-term, since this is space race?
......a1. Will we build as many cottages here as possible? If so, do we prefer as many river tiles as possible?
...b. Do we assume we'll move our capital and focus on REX (or Oracle)?
......b1. Do we want to settle this region so we can cottage every single non-resource flat tile possible?
...c. Do we want to use the 1W site for a National Park city? This could give us a few more GPs toward the end and there's no guarantee there will be another site available with so many forests.

2. Should we think in terms of dot-mapping now, since we know where there are mountains, land, the island, etc.?
...a. If we settle 1S, we can still settle on the protruding tile to the SE, plus next to the fish up NE. Plus, 1S gets another hil in its FC, which can be good for buiding Oxford, etc.
...b. If we settle 1W, we have more options for settling NE and SE and they have a bit more non-overlapping land, but it's possible that fewer of the potential river tiles will be in the capital. On the other hand, the capital wouldn't be sitting on, thereby wasting a river tile. 1W appears to have only 1 hill in its FC.

3. How soon do we want to research Sailing and settle the island? (If barbs or AIs settel it first, we're stuck with their choices. --Assuming there isn't already an AI there!!! :eek:)

4. How important is it that we have a few mega-cities and minimizing maintencance costs, as opposed to just maxing our potential 100% research output and figuring out a way to stay at 100%.
 
1.- Longterm capital. Changing to a good cottages site much later is indesirable due to undeveloped cottages.

2.- Good to take into account, but only as secondary reasons. For example, what if there's a resource on the dot-planned site?

3.- Our airships will tell us. We are not in such a hurry as to let that screw our long term capital.

4.- The more cities, the better.
 
Btw, if you guys are waiting for me to finish my PPP, I'm stuck. How are we going to decide where we want to settle?

1. What do we want with our first city?
...a. Do we assume it'll remain our capital and focus long-term, since this is space race?
......a1. Will we build as many cottages here as possible? If so, do we prefer as many river tiles as possible?
...b. Do we assume we'll move our capital and focus on REX (or Oracle)?
......b1. Do we want to settle this region so we can cottage every single non-resource flat tile possible?
...c. Do we want to use the 1W site for a National Park city? This could give us a few more GPs toward the end and there's no guarantee there will be another site available with so many forests.

2. Should we think in terms of dot-mapping now, since we know where there are mountains, land, the island, etc.?
...a. If we settle 1S, we can still settle on the protruding tile to the SE, plus next to the fish up NE. Plus, 1S gets another hil in its FC, which can be good for buiding Oxford, etc.
...b. If we settle 1W, we have more options for settling NE and SE and they have a bit more non-overlapping land, but it's possible that fewer of the potential river tiles will be in the capital. On the other hand, the capital wouldn't be sitting on, thereby wasting a river tile. 1W appears to have only 1 hill in its FC.

3. How soon do we want to research Sailing and settle the island? (If barbs or AIs settel it first, we're stuck with their choices. --Assuming there isn't already an AI there!!! :eek:)

4. How important is it that we have a few mega-cities and minimizing maintencance costs, as opposed to just maxing our potential 100% research output and figuring out a way to stay at 100%.

Here's my take:
1a: I don't think we will be in a good position to move our capital before Oxford, so I think it should remain the same, building a mix of windmills, cottages, and forest preserves for happiness to work the cottages and windmills. As the happy cap rises, preserves can be replaced by cottages.
a1: Given the above, I think we need to focus on keeping tech pace up while rexing, so the extra commerce from the river is definitely a factor.
b1: probably, yes.
1c: I think we should put NP (+NE?) in a captured AI capital/other city. The AI likes to build preserves at the expense of chopping, and this frees our capital to be a bureaucratic cottaged oxford city.

2: I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dotmapping before we can see the colour of the land, and the distribution of resources. Anywhere other than in-place will allow for a half-city on the coast, which is all we can really decide now.

3: We should be ready to settle it, or at least fogbust it, before oxford. However, this just means that we need a coastal city with enough production to build/whip a galley. No need to commit to settling it before we know what's there.

4: There will be a point when every city added will pay for itself almost immediately, increasing our research. More = better.

edit: just seen jesusin's post, I agree with him. I just waffle a bit more :p
 
It also shows up when you delete the wheat and put deer in the forest 2NW of the scout. And also when you replace the copper and horses with aluminum and coal. :crazyeye: Ouch. Actually, if you add the deer, you can delete all three strategic resources and still get it. Looks like that formula is putting a high priority on food, at least on T0.
Deer does not appear naturally on ice. If you think Gyathaar put it there just to confuse us, there is still the question how you get the settling recommendation on this supposed deer tile and not on the adjacent tiles.

But, I agree the big question is between fast development and long term capital. 2E is a mediocre compromise, IMO, not speeding up much, but still the need to move the capital later. Fast development is on the corn, with early BW. But then we don't know if there is any top forest site left. Or if we ever find a decent alternate capital location.
 
Deer does not appear naturally on ice.
Didn't think of that. Okay, so it looks like there's food where you said. How do you rate 1W with 1S, then, knowing/ignoring/considering that there are still unanswered questions on the other fogged tiles for those two sites?

Okay, fog-gazing, the 1W site appears to have 5 plains tiles, including the food at 2W of scout, and 2 tundra tiles.

1S appears to have 4 plains tiles plus 3 mystery tiles to the south that are 1 hill and two flatland.

Seems like 1S is the better of the two sites, unless the mystery tiles are tundra. In-place is the only site that we know has no tundra.
 

I don't care where we settle. We will adjust our play to fit the site.

I'm a bit unsure what is best to build after worker. Why building settler while farming? Is it not better to grow to pop2 as quickly as possible (while building warrior) to get one extra hammer at pop2 a few turns earlier? :confused:

Else PPP looks fine :lol:
 
I'm a bit unsure what is best to build after worker. Why building settler while farming? Is it not better to grow to pop2 as quickly as possible (while building warrior) to get one extra hammer at pop2 a few turns earlier? :confused:
When I was building a library in 3t, this was the best way. I haven't tested with klarius' fast settler path, so I don't actually know.
 
Are we set on going the cottage route? Couldn't a specialist economy that is later supported by a hammer economy as in our last game be an alternative?
 
Does anyone object to the PPP? Please voice your opinion so that LC can continue his turn set :whipped:

When I was building a library in 3t, this was the best way. I haven't tested with klarius' fast settler path, so I don't actually know.

Ok, I'm fine with the PPP then.

Are we set on going the cottage route? Couldn't a specialist economy that is later supported by a hammer economy as in our last game be an alternative?

Each grassland can either be cottaged or farmed to support a specialist (with biology), so with representation we get similar figures, yes? Still, we need cottages in our capital/oxford city. Preserves are a good compromise that can help us through the mid game. The dynamics of the economy may have an impact, so I don't think it's enough with just calculating static commerce/beaker figures.
 
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