Condensed tips for beginners?

not overlapping is often less optimal than overlapping due to one city being able to work there while the other not being able to, for one reason or another, or vice versa ... i'm having a private guideline that two cities shouldn't share anymore than 4 usefull titles together (which mean at least 3*2* away if no mountains)

Tile overlap is GOOD for reasons I pointed out several times before.

A few (again):
You make sure every tile is being worked (or at least as many as possible). You can't count on size-20-cities as they'll be around 10 for most of the game (and the earlygame is the most important part of the game, this is where cities are smallest).

Cottage cities need to work mines occasionally for example to build an university or similar. Having another city maturing that cottage is nice.

Sharing mines between cottage cities (or GPfarms) is nice for (nearly) the same reason as above.

Forest in multiple BFCs give a health bonus to every city. Don't chop these forests if possible.

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mystyfly said:

Tile overlap is GOOD for reasons I pointed out several times before.

A few (again):
You make sure every tile is being worked (or at least as many as possible). You can't count on size-20-cities as they'll be around 10 for most of the game (and the earlygame is the most important part of the game, this is where cities are smallest).

Cottage cities need to work mines occasionally for example to build an university or similar. Having another city maturing that cottage is nice.

Sharing mines between cottage cities (or GPfarms) is nice for (nearly) the same reason as above.

Forest in multiple BFCs give a health bonus to every city. Don't chop these forests if possible.

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As usual, thanks for this mystyfly. I don't remember you mentioning this before.

EDIT: Actually, I did find your post on this. Sorry about that. Would it be a good strategy to unclick on the working tiles and assign a specialist and have the other city work that tile?

yanner39 said:

EDIT: Actually, I did find your post on this. Sorry about that. Would it be a good strategy to unclick on the working tiles and assign a specialist and have the other city work that tile?

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That depends. If you share a cottage and one city is a gpfarm you'd rather run a scientist. Is it a mine, you'll want it for the production city (unless your gp/science city is working on something big). It's always important to specialize your cities.

mystyfly said:

Tile overlap is GOOD for reasons I pointed out several times before.

A few (again):
You make sure every tile is being worked (or at least as many as possible). You can't count on size-20-cities as they'll be around 10 for most of the game (and the earlygame is the most important part of the game, this is where cities are smallest).

Cottage cities need to work mines occasionally for example to build an university or similar. Having another city maturing that cottage is nice.

Sharing mines between cottage cities (or GPfarms) is nice for (nearly) the same reason as above.

Forest in multiple BFCs give a health bonus to every city. Don't chop these forests if possible.

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I agree that after your first three cities, including your capital, overlap won't hurt--especially if you're coming up on a rival border. However, some of the benefits you describe are illusury.
For the benefit of the forest, my understanding is that the tiles for a certain city are for that city unless you manually adjust the tile in the city screen--one forest will not, therefore, benefit all of your cities, anymore than wetlands will adversely affect the health of all of your cities. The picture you describe is as if one tile can serve two cities at the same time when it can't.
NONETHELESS, I have found that having the option of manually adjusting tiles for overlapped cities is a benefit, but a benefit that arises from the obvious detriment of not being able to utilize the tiles at your desposal.

When your plotting out your empire and real estate is an issue, I say avoid overlap at all costs. You need to get as much as land as possible. I consciously dovetail city to city, Tetris-ing the tiles together to not only maximum tile usage but also maximize territorial gain.
Overlap if you must, but it should be held as an exception and not a rule. In the late game you may find yourself with several starving cities and no alternatives for more food.

Just my humble opinion, but not overlapping has never bit me in the ass--the opposite is true.

I have always been under the impression that a forest in 2 city bfcs benefit both but am not so sure anymore. Can someone confirm this (my bts isn't running atm ).

mystyfly said:

I have always been under the impression that a forest in 2 city bfcs benefit both but am not so sure anymore. Can someone confirm this (my bts isn't running atm ).

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I stand corrected--partially.
A forest gives .5 health to nearby cities, and in overlap it WILL benefit both cities(three even, I guess, but I'm not sure).
The catch is that without more than one for either city you will not get the full health bonus.
This applies to any .5 health bonus with forests, but then camps count because they have forests in them. So two camps and a forest will count for 1 extra health, whereas three camps and a forest(or four camps) will count for two health.

You are correct, sir. My apologies.

I was a console gamer for.years and just started civ4 a month ago. I found this forum and it seemed helpful and lo and behold my first question was going to be on tile overlap and here is the answer already. Thank you.

arcane assasin said:

I was a console gamer for.years and just started civ4 a month ago. I found this forum and it seemed helpful and lo and behold my first question was going to be on tile overlap and here is the answer already. Thank you.

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It's great you found your answer so quickly!

And welcome to the civfanatics forums! You will find that no matter how experienced you are at the game, or how experienced you become, there will always be things you can learn here.

Welcome to the Forums arcane assasin.

I'm still a newb but I just started a game trying to put to use some of the tips found here. Luckily I started in an area with 2 very good sites side by side and another pretty good one just above that. All three sites have touching city borders but no overlap. The first one has abundant grasslands and 4 floodplains with a winding river touching most tiles. Good for a GPffarm, but even better for a comm city, especially since there is very little prod, and my focus being on science and fast research. I tagged this site for a cottage based commerce city and science center.

The second is a fantastic production site with 4 hills, a horse, and a cow, as well as 4 floodplains for support within its radius.

The third is a coastal city with 6 water tiles and mostly grass on land tiles, also horse is only resource. With plans to build the Collosus on this lake map, and the lack of a river running thru, I tagged this as another comm city, with cottages covering the grass tiles, and I will use it as a gold source.

So where's the problem? Well the lack of a GPfarm at this stage has me worried, and scanning the available land, including some opponents territory, I don't see as good a location as my first city. So my first question is how important is the GP farm, and can I survive for a while without one, or even play the whole game without.

Another issue that has arisen is the location for a religious holy city. I was lucky enough tofound Hinduism without even rushing, but the holy city was placed in my production city. This being the case, how can I take advantage of the hc benefits which are mostly financial and cultural, in a city designed for building?

Also, for future reference, is there a way to determine in which city a religion will be founded, (last city created perhaps?)

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated and put to good use.

Dresden said:

Then D2D should have given you a PDF copy of the manual. Although when I bought the disc edition of Civ4 Gold there was supposed to be full PDF copies of the Vanilla & Warlords manuals on Disk 3, but that turned out to be a lie so I wouldn't be surprised if D2D didn't supply one either. Luckily you can get a replacement copy.

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Other options include reading the in-game Civipedia which has much of the information that is in the manual and for facts, Anion's PDF is excellent (doesn't include any changes from the most recent patch though).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236346

arcane assasin said:

Good for a GPffarm, but even better for a comm city

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I generally agree but what you describe is a good commerce (cottage) city but not a good gpfarm...

So where's the problem? Well the lack of a GPfarm at this stage has me worried, and scanning the available land, including some opponents territory, I don't see as good a location as my first city. So my first question is how important is the GP farm, and can I survive for a while without one, or even play the whole game without.

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If you are on a level that you struggle to win on (or have even and tough fights with the AI) then you can't win without it generally.

I find myself not looking for commerce and production but for GPFarm sites first. I suggest you try that too. Finding great commerce cities is usually easier than finding a great GPFarm. BTW for big amount of planning early on

Another issue that has arisen is the location for a religious holy city. I was lucky enough tofound Hinduism without even rushing, but the holy city was placed in my production city. This being the case, how can I take advantage of the hc benefits which are mostly financial and cultural, in a city designed for building?

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Now that's less good. Founding an early religion yourself takes away AI-AI tension (and can lead to "lovefests" where all (other) AIs love eachother due to shared religion; in these games the techpace is fastest). Also you generally shouldn't spend that many hammers in missionaries. Without missionaries your religion won't spread that far and your shrine won't yield you much.
Getting the shrine in a production city isn't so bad. It'll have market/grocer/bank/Wall Street up faster and can run merchant specialists to maintain 100% if possible.

Also, for future reference, is there a way to determine in which city a religion will be founded, (last city created perhaps?)

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Capitals nearly never get a religion. The more religion are present in a city, the less likely a religion gets founded there. The more pop a city has the more likely is it that a religion is founded there. I think this is it.

Happy civvin'

mystyfly said:

I generally agree but what you describe is a good commerce (cottage) city but not a good gpfarm...


If you are on a level that you struggle to win on (or have even and tough fights with the AI) then you can't win without it generally.

I find myself not looking for commerce and production but for GPFarm sites first. I suggest you try that too. Finding great commerce cities is usually easier than finding a great GPFarm. BTW for big amount of planning early on


Now that's less good. Founding an early religion yourself takes away AI-AI tension (and can lead to "lovefests" where all (other) AIs love eachother due to shared religion; in these games the techpace is fastest). Also you generally shouldn't spend that many hammers in missionaries. Without missionaries your religion won't spread that far and your shrine won't yield you much.
Getting the shrine in a production city isn't so bad. It'll have market/grocer/bank/Wall Street up faster and can run merchant specialists to maintain 100% if possible.


Capitals nearly never get a religion. The more religion are present in a city, the less likely a religion gets founded there. The more pop a city has the more likely is it that a religion is founded there. I think this is it.

Happy civvin'

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OK, if the first city I described is better for a comm city, but you would generally look for a GPfarm first, then what am I looking for in a good GPfarm site?

Lots and lots of food in order to run lots and lots of specialists. Specialists give GPP ever turn so a lot of them really aid in pumping out the Great People.

Two or Three food resources are best along with very few food negative tiles. Food negative is a tile with 1 or less food.

You're not looking for lots of food but lots of FOOD SURPLUS. Tough farmed flood plains give 4 food, 2 of them aren't as good as riverside farmed corn (6F). Your GPFarm must be able to run as many scientists as possible with working as few tiles (farms) as possible (to avoid and unhealthiness).

I'd chose cities for gpfarms with at least 2 decent food resources or 3 seafoodresources, depending on the map. You should ALWAYS be able to find one of these near you on standard map scripts - otherwise you're quite unlucky

What are the advantages/disadvantages of a larger map size vs. A smaller, and to how many civs you play on each?

I always play at least one civ less than max allowed, but if I play with two less will that leave too much distance between civs?

I also have only played small maps or under. It seems from reading posts here that I can benefit from standard size due to better city locations and more available resources.

This is a great thread. I'm returning to the game after a long layoff, and reading this is shaking some of the cobwebs out. I'm starting a new custom game tonight on Noble. I am using a Huge Terra Map, playing as Washington with Caesar, Alexander, Isabella, Catherine, Saladin, Gengis, Napoleon, and Bismarck. What do you think I'm in for, did I stack the deck with too much hostility against me?

arcane assasin said:

What are the advantages/disadvantages of a larger map size vs. A smaller, and to how many civs you play on each?

I always play at least one civ less than max allowed, but if I play with two less will that leave too much distance between civs?

I also have only played small maps or under. It seems from reading posts here that I can benefit from standard size due to better city locations and more available resources.

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Larger maps mean more territory available to everyone, though that can depend on how many other civs you choose to start with. If it's not too crowded, it should mean a more peaceful early game. The AI doesn't tend to start warring until there's no room left for expansion. And as you said, there should be more occurrences of key resources available.

The risk is a potential lack of trading partners--for techs, GPT, resources, and gold. The larger the map with fewer civs, the more chance there is of being isolated or only having one neighbour (who will NOT trade techs with you until they meet someone else who has the same techs they do).

Smaller maps tend to make for quicker games because you'll have fewer cities to manage. A domination or conquest win will be easier to achieve with less land/enemies to conquer. But if you like a more drawn-out game, a larger map with a few more civs on it is the way to go. Many of the regular players tend to prefer large or huge maps with additional civs, all the way up to the max of 18.

Ok, well another thought just occured to me. How is it possible to achieve a conquest victory without accidentally winning by domination along the way.

Before you ask, yes I have yet to win a game. I have played a half dozen, all on Noble, but I have not started a new game since finding this site.