SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I know this is a huge change from Kaitzilla's recently updated PPP, but I really like the mass spread of taoism...

Fritz
T115 moves and plantation for incense & stop
T116 move & help finish spice plantation for the capital
T117 Road 1NW of spice (with Goodyear)
T118 Road 2N2W of spice (with Goodyear) (these roads speed up a missionary from stone to GPFarm)
T119 silk plantation 1W of GPFarm
T120 silk plantation
T121 move and put 1 turn on incense
T122 road SW of rice for settler from Silver
T123 finish road SW of rice
T124 ?? 1E and farm (to get into position to farm grass near GPFarm)

My test game crashes too

Goodyear
T115 plantation for spice
T116 plantation for spice
T117 Road 1NW of spice with Fritz
T118 Road 2N2W of spice iwth Fritz
T119 silk plantation near GPFarm with Fritz
T120 silk plantation
T121 silk plantation
T122-T125 incense plantation

Eiffel no strong feelings (I like a farm after the camp since the dye can wait)

Hoover
T115 moves to oasis SW of stone
T116-T118 roads oasis (this speeds up the missionary to Washington (can get there in 1 turn)
T119 roads 1W of washington (trying to get to marble city without wasting a turn, the road is somewhat useful maybe)
T120 moves and farms 1NW of marble
T121-T122 farms NW of marble with Semiramis
T123-T125 farms near Marble

Semiramis
T115 spice plantation
T116 spice plantation finishes with help
T117 cottage 1N1E of washington
T118 road tile 1N1E for missionary coming from stone city
T119 finishes road
T120 roads 1W of washington finishes with hoover's help last turn
T121-122 farms 1NW of Marble with hoover
T123-125 farms near Marble

Yamasaki
I'd like Yamasaki to finish chopping the sugar by himself, this gives time for Ramanujan time to finish a Grass Mine near Gems
Then Ramanujan can help make the plantation with Yamasaki

Steveson
I like roading the pigs, then moving to the forest 2E1N of Phants city. Then chopping this forest for Phants city, this allows it to 1 pop whip the granary and really accelerate its development. I have no strong feelings after the forest chop.
Ah Kaitzilla is already basically doing this...

Karl I don't have super strong feelings for Karl.

City builds

Washington
I like market/wealth if we need it for music T115-T116
T117-T118 revolt
T119 forge mostly food and cottages
T120 forge
T121 with road taoism spreads here this turn forge build getting as close to maxing OF as you can get
T122 whip forge
T123 taoism missionary (Boston perhaps)
T124 monastery
T125 monastery

Stone city
T115-T116 wealth (or maybe monastery T116 since no sense waiting to spread taoism here)
T117-T118 revolt
T119 taoist missionary (careful to put 9 hammers or less)
T120 2 pop whip (goes to washington)
T121 missionary with OF (goes to GPFarm)
T122 missionary (less than 9 hammers)
T123 2 pop whip missionary (to silver unless auto spread...)
T124 missionary with OF (to Boston?)
T125 monastery


Gems
T115-T116 lighthouse with gmine
T117-T118 revolt
T119 taoist misionary (careful to put 9 hammers or less)
T120 whip missionary (to isengard?)
T121 missionary with OF (possible after spread of taoism to washington with new roads) (to Trojan Horse)
T122 lighthouse whip
T123 forge
T124 set up 2 pop with max OF forge whip
T125 whip forge
T126 AP

GPFarm
T115 NE
T116 Settler
T117-T118 revolt
T119 Settler (setting up max OF)
T120 3 pop whip settler
T121 food and keeping 2 scientists? build currency preserve OF hammers
T122 wealth
T123 NE keeping scientists? (now that taoism spread here with improved roads)
T124 NE keeping scientists?
T125 NE keeping scientists?


Silver
T115 lighthouse (growing to 6 pop)
T116 settler
T117-T118 revolt
T119 settler
T120 settler
T121 whip settler
T122 wealth (saving OF until taoism spreads here) maxing food
T123 wealth
T124 wealth
T125 lighthouse now with taoism

Isengard
I'm fine with Kaitzilla's plan (i was going to suggest building a worker and using the OF after taoism spreads here for a lighthouse (finishes in 1 turn with 10+ OF) Lighthouse finishes in 1 turn even with out taoism. This might make sense to do before mass whipping military units. The worker can build the road faster to the barbarian city and so the military units might get to the city at the same time if we do this...

Cultural Bridge
I think we switch to a library to preserve the 2 pop of the lighthouse
2 pop whip Lighthouse after switch to slavery
Then library, then 2 pop the library when you reach 5 pop (working coast and seafood)

Phants City
I like chopping a forest into the granary so that we can 1 pop the granary before the end of Kaitzilla's turnset

I see now this is what Kaitzilla suggests..

Marble
Grow I think a 2 pop of the granary might be best here... almost set up by the end even though I delayed some farms for Marble with my worker plans.

I too can't get the test game past T124. Here is the save file from my implementation of the ideas above.
 

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  • Kakumeika AD-0225.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Kaitzilla said:
SECOND DRAFT PPP​

GPFarm

Spoiler :


City Actions
T115-T116 - National Epic [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, 6 Scientists, then 7 T116]
T117-T118 Revolt
T119 - Settler [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, Silk, Ghill, Ghill, Phill, Phill, 2 Scientists]
T120 - Settler [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, Silk, Silk, Ghill, Phill, Phill, 2 Scientists]
T121 - Whip Settler [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Food Plain, Ghill, Ghill, Phill, Phill] (Founds Sheep City T124)
T122-T125 - National Epic [Fish, Clam, Pigs, Flood Plain, Grass Farm, Silk, Silk, Ghill, then Ghill followed by Phills after T122] (City Growth or NE rushing here?)

Worker Actions
Fritz:
T115 - Fort Silk (Already done at start of T115)

In my real game save you can stop Fritz from doing this. Did you already do some actions in the real game?
T116-T118 Plantation Silk 1S1W of GPfarm
T119-T120 Plantation Silk 1W of GPfarm
T121 - Road 1S1E of GPFarm
T122 - Leave GPFarm's BFC to Road 1N of Washington's Sheep tile

Goodyear:
T116-T117 Plantation Silk 1S1W of GPfarm
Might as well leave this as an unfinished fort for now in my opinion... GPFarm will only work 1 silk plantation most likely in the short to midterm.
Roads are more important than either of these plantations... see plan above...
T118-T120 Plantation Silk 1W of GPfarm
T121 - Road 1S1E of GPFarm
T122 - Leave GPFarm's BFC to Road 1N of Washington's Sheep tile


???Will cancel resource trades with East Witches as soon as possible to avoid diplo penalties from AI that demand a halt???
Need some advice on this one. Stinks we can only trade with North Witches because we have no trade route to West Witches yet.


Espionage will stay on North Witches.
Click to expand...
I think we can keep the trades for gold from the Eastern witches, but resource gifts can be canceled.

I think espionage only stays on the north withces if we see them research something interesting next. If they don't then we should put all of it on the southern witches until we can see their research. Then most of it back on the northern witches.
Click to expand...
 
I checked the save I took before I closed the real game.

When I take screenshots of the game when it is not my turnset, I am super careful and don't touch a single thing.


Since it is my turnset, I fortified all the units so I could take screenshots in peace without fear of accidentally moving anyone with an errant right click.

It turns out that 3 workers automatically kept doing what they were doing when I was fortifying units. :blush:
So yes, I have accidentally commited game actions with 3 workers. The 2 building Forts and the elephant one.
 
As punishment you now have to assess my plan see how it might be better than yours and then make it happen despite your mistake :D
 
Kaitzilla said:
Let me pre-emptively say that I only want a marketplace in the capital because it is full of cottages. I forsee us at 0% science to build up gold while cranking out university/oxford, and the Civil Service will make it very nice eventually.
Click to expand...

OK, it's about a 3-pop whip pre-Bureaucracy, but there is a pre-Oxford window where a market has clear benefit.

I think Yama and Rama should not both move to the Phill to mine it, nor hurry to finish the Gmine. Our population will be so small after 3 whips that we will not be in a rush to work mines. Instead, I suggest finishing the plantation per the PPP, send one to start the Pmine and one to start a Gworkshop for much later. When each is done, return to the sugar tile and put one turn on a road. That will get the Gworkshop, Pmine and road completed by T125 and the workers on the road network to finish the Gmine and start helping Sheep City. No worker turns wasted in the long run, and the only loss is lack of sugar being on the network for 5 turns.

Sheep City needs a workboat. Is it going to chop out its own, then build Culture to pop its border?

Fritz can be woken up in time not to put down a turn on his fort.

I think Marble City should probably plan for 2-pop whips of a granary, overflow to courthouse, and 2-pop whip of a library, and later a 2-pop whip of that courthouse. Doing that off the farms actually produces about the same hammers than spending time working a Gmine at size 1-5 doing 1-pop whips of granary and lighthouse, even though that gives a faster granary (because fewer food are going into the granary). Both get to 2-pop whip a courthouse T142-3 (assuming we're still in slavery then), as tested on my spreadsheet. The advantage is that we'll want the farms long term for merchants, and won't want the mine long term. So if we can save six worker turns sending two workers down to that mine and back, this is good.

So, I think Hoover and Semi should build a farm 2W1N of Marble City T119, build more farms moving together anti-clockwise to finish on the farm 1W1N of Marble City for the final road and heading off to less fertile lands :) The second farm syncs with the growth to size 3. If we switch onto the lighthouse for a handful of turns, we'll be able to 2-pop whip the granary T127.

I think Eiffel and Stevenson should not rush for a farm west of Phants, because with the chop and the growth to size two enabling a 1-pop whip of a granary, we will not be at size two to work that farm in the short term. I think it is better to move Eiffel to the jungle after the camp, chop the jungle, and have Stevenson temporise with one turn on the iron road before helping rush the dyes finished. 2:food:5:commerce: is a sound tile to work at size 2 if we need one. Next, we probably want a road, to temporise-work back across that iron tile and put up some farms.
 
Kaitzilla said:
I checked the save I took before I closed the real game.

When I take screenshots of the game when it is not my turnset, I am super careful and don't touch a single thing.


Since it is my turnset, I fortified all the units so I could take screenshots in peace without fear of accidentally moving anyone with an errant right click.
Click to expand...

Lesson: before doing anything after downloading a save, click a worker, and you can Alt-click to cancel all pending worker actions. Preferably we should do this before uploading saves, too. :)
 
We might want to wait to settle Sheep (do we want to chop that forest outside of Gems for the AP perhaps?)

Send the first settler down the spoke perhaps to the sheep/fur/marble/silver/seafood site?

Isengard perhaps can build workboats for both of those cities... Or build a fort near gems city can get a woatboat out of Cultural Bridge when it 2 pop whips a library?
 
bcool said:
Eiffel no strong feelings (I like a farm after the camp since the dye can wait)
Click to expand...

The farm won't be worked in the near future. The dye plantation is acceptable to work if we really end up needing to work a tile at size 2.

bcool said:
Hoover
T115 moves to oasis SW of stone
T116-T118 roads oasis (this speeds up the missionary to Washington (can get there in 1 turn)
T119 roads 1W of washington (trying to get to marble city without wasting a turn, the road is somewhat useful maybe)
T120 moves and farms 1NW of marble
T121-T122 farms NW of marble with Semiramis
T123-T125 farms near Marble

Semiramis
T115 spice plantation
T116 spice plantation finishes with help
T117 cottage 1N1E of washington
T118 road tile 1N1E for missionary coming from stone city
T119 finishes road
T120 roads 1W of washington finishes with hoover's help last turn
T121-122 farms 1NW of Marble with hoover
T123-125 farms near Marble
Click to expand...

I'm happy with plans that get roads that missionaries will use.

bcool said:
Yamasaki
I'd like Yamasaki to finish chopping the sugar by himself, this gives time for Ramanujan time to finish a Grass Mine near Gems
Then Ramanujan can help make the plantation with Yamasaki
Click to expand...

The turn saved not moving onto the jungle is lost moving around to the Gmine, and we won't have the population to work two Gmines (and probably prefer to work coast anyway) so you aren't gaining anything.
 
bcool said:
We might want to wait to settle Sheep (do we want to chop that forest outside of Gems for the AP perhaps?)

Send the first settler down the spoke perhaps to the sheep/fur/marble/silver/seafood site?

Isengard perhaps can build workboats for both of those cities... Or build a fort near gems city can get a woatboat out of Cultural Bridge when it 2 pop whips a library?
Click to expand...


I would rather use those 2 forests to get sheep city online.
If we really need a boost for AP, we should consider chopping the forest that our deer is in. We will lose a hammer per turn permanently, but gain 45 hammers for the AP after multipliers.

I'm really not looking forwards to settling Fur City faster than T129. If the South Witches come I don't want to defend 2 cities :crazyeye:

And now someone wants to strip the last military city for workboats. Please let me build military somewhere! :cry:
 
bcool said:
We might want to wait to settle Sheep (do we want to chop that forest outside of Gems for the AP perhaps?)

Send the first settler down the spoke perhaps to the sheep/fur/marble/silver/seafood site?
Click to expand...

I like the hub city better than the sheep city, but we'll want to be fairly sure there's no AI stack coming to hit it.

bcool said:
Isengard perhaps can build workboats for both of those cities... Or build a fort near gems city can get a woatboat out of Cultural Bridge when it 2 pop whips a library?
Click to expand...

I'd rather take 8 turns with a workboat going via Isengard than spend 10-11 worker turns on a canal fort that might never be used again.
 
Kaitzilla said:
I would rather use those 2 forests to get sheep city online.
If we really need a boost for AP, we should consider chopping the forest that our deer is in. We will lose a hammer per turn permanently, but gain 45 hammers for the AP after multipliers.

I'm really not looking forwards to settling Fur City faster than T129. If the South Witches come I don't want to defend 2 cities :crazyeye:

And now someone wants to strip the last military city for workboats. Please let me build military somewhere! :cry:
Click to expand...

Yeah some units in Isengard is fine. If sheep keeps its forests it can chop its own workboat.
 
mabraham said:
Lesson: before doing anything after downloading a save, click a worker, and you can Alt-click to cancel all pending worker actions. Preferably we should do this before uploading saves, too. :)
Click to expand...

good idea. I always knew there was a way to do this but I never have looked it up. Thanks :)
 
Kaitzilla said:
I would rather use those 2 forests to get sheep city online.
If we really need a boost for AP, we should consider chopping the forest that our deer is in. We will lose a hammer per turn permanently, but gain 45 hammers for the AP after multipliers.

I'm really not looking forwards to settling Fur City faster than T129. If the South Witches come I don't want to defend 2 cities :crazyeye:

And now someone wants to strip the last military city for workboats. Please let me build military somewhere! :cry:
Click to expand...

after the military units...
since the border pop won't happen for a long while...

but fine use the forests for sheep city. :)
 
mabraham said:
OK, it's about a 3-pop whip pre-Bureaucracy, but there is a pre-Oxford window where a market has clear benefit.

I think Yama and Rama should not both move to the Phill to mine it, nor hurry to finish the Gmine. Our population will be so small after 3 whips that we will not be in a rush to work mines. Instead, I suggest finishing the plantation per the PPP, send one to start the Pmine and one to start a Gworkshop for much later. When each is done, return to the sugar tile and put one turn on a road. That will get the Gworkshop, Pmine and road completed by T125 and the workers on the road network to finish the Gmine and start helping Sheep City. No worker turns wasted in the long run, and the only loss is lack of sugar being on the network for 5 turns.

Sheep City needs a workboat. Is it going to chop out its own, then build Culture to pop its border?

Fritz can be woken up in time not to put down a turn on his fort.

I think Marble City should probably plan for 2-pop whips of a granary, overflow to courthouse, and 2-pop whip of a library, and later a 2-pop whip of that courthouse. Doing that off the farms actually produces about the same hammers than spending time working a Gmine at size 1-5 doing 1-pop whips of granary and lighthouse, even though that gives a faster granary (because fewer food are going into the granary). Both get to 2-pop whip a courthouse T142-3 (assuming we're still in slavery then), as tested on my spreadsheet. The advantage is that we'll want the farms long term for merchants, and won't want the mine long term. So if we can save six worker turns sending two workers down to that mine and back, this is good.

So, I think Hoover and Semi should build a farm 2W1N of Marble City T119, build more farms moving together anti-clockwise to finish on the farm 1W1N of Marble City for the final road and heading off to less fertile lands :) The second farm syncs with the growth to size 3. If we switch onto the lighthouse for a handful of turns, we'll be able to 2-pop whip the granary T127.

I think Eiffel and Stevenson should not rush for a farm west of Phants, because with the chop and the growth to size two enabling a 1-pop whip of a granary, we will not be at size two to work that farm in the short term. I think it is better to move Eiffel to the jungle after the camp, chop the jungle, and have Stevenson temporise with one turn on the iron road before helping rush the dyes finished. 2:food:5:commerce: is a sound tile to work at size 2 if we need one. Next, we probably want a road, to temporise-work back across that iron tile and put up some farms.
Click to expand...


Actually, Fritz won't be woken on T115 after all. I made a mistake I'm sorry!

The Ghill in Gems City actually needs 3 worker turns to complete. I just saw it in the real game.

The lighthouse in Culture City has 25/60 hammers, so we don't need to worry about queue switching to get a 2pop whip T119.

I'll switch Marble City to farm first intead of Ghill.
Ill switch Phants City to dye instead of farm, but it won't get big unless we add in some farms to that lone seafood eventually.
 
I'd rather take 8 turns with a workboat going via Isengard than spend 10-11 worker turns on a canal fort that might never be used again.
Click to expand...

Okay forget the fort :( (oh so many early dreams of ours crushed by logic) but what a minute you would rather lose 8 turns of an improved seafood for 11 worker turns? That is 16 food for 11 worker turns that isn't a bad trade if we can't build the workboat anywhere else of course...
 
I'm not a build fan of 3 pop whipping the market we would be back down to 5 pop in washington again? The market isn't going to add that much if you factor in the lost time working cottages and growing them. Why can't we slow build the market?
 
bcool said:
I'm not a build fan of 3 pop whipping the market we would be back down to 5 pop in washington again? The market isn't going to add that much if you factor in the lost time working cottages and growing them. Why can't we slow build the market?
Click to expand...

We could do either or a compromise. We can address that detail next turn set?
 
bcool said:
I'm not a build fan of 3 pop whipping the market we would be back down to 5 pop in washington again? The market isn't going to add that much if you factor in the lost time working cottages and growing them. Why can't we slow build the market?
Click to expand...

3 pop whipping the market gets us down to 7 population in Washington. I suppose in light of the need for an engineer specialist as soon as possible, it might be worth slow building. Why not slow build the forge too? Cause it is slow :devil:

I just love the whip so much. Whip the market, whip the monastary, whip a barracks, whip an army :whipped:
 
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