Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

Yes, though though the Glade guard will just start with the quality bows promotion instead of the glade guard longbows promotion, and have the Waywatcher troop have +10% forest strength, ancient forest strength instead of +20% (because of the forest stalker promotion), and glade riders will be based on the horsearcher unit, not the light cavalry unit (= lancers).

Changes noted.

Oh, and you can't *actually* have trolls have 2 replacement units for the same faction.
By replace trolls we really just mean the same unit slot and cost; you'll have to create a separate xml class for the second one.
I know that. :sigh:


So, I'm gonna wait around til P_L says something on the WEs. I'll need a go ahead since they're his baby and he's editing them or something. I'm not gonna start coding the xml if I'll just have to edit it later.
In the meantime, I'll be downloading the mod Dune Wars.
 
I know that. :sigh:

Ok, I figured you did but just wanted to make sure I didn't mess anyone up - and make them have to do things twice :)

So, I'm gonna wait around til P_L says something on the WEs. I'll need a go ahead since they're his baby and he's editing them or something. I'm not gonna start coding the xml if I'll just have to edit it later.

Totally reasonable.
 
Araby, Tilea, Estalia all look ok (though their religious units are separate).

We need a religious unit design for Spirituality civs.
 
Ahriman said:
We need a religious unit design for Spirituality civs.

We talking a few generic Spirituality units? Or we talking civ specific UUs?
If we're talking generics, we could go the "Templar" style route. Basically, religious military order type units with flavor appropiate names and pedia entries. I'm thinking a Crusader unit, 3 tiers of a Priest units, and a general missionary unit (could also be teir 1 of the Priest units).
If we're talking UUs, this idea could also be applied to the civs via use of the civ specific Spirituality Temples. Basically, Temple of Sigmar would have its Crusader unit, Crusader unit, 3 tiers of a Priest units, and general missionary unit. Temple of Myrmidia would have the same. And so on with the others.
 
We talking a few generic Spirituality units? Or we talking civ specific UUs?

Ideally UUs, but a mix of both can work.

We're talking probably 2 units per faction mostly, with maybe a third.
Something at priesthood, something at fanaticism.

And ideally a UB temple for each faction.

Examples are here for Chaos (4x demons + 1x demon lord) and Salvation (1x priest, 1x high priest/crusader/inquisitor, and maybe 1x fanatic/flaggelant).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3

The relevant factions for Spirituality are Araby, Ind, Cathay and Nippon.
 
but then the boywers building has no purpose for WE.

thats fine with me :) if you want Boyers wor WE just make it increase the trained EXP cap for archers?

I won't fight to the death though though to stop them doing collateral to 1 unit, since they have no siege units left.

thats really the main reason for the collateral, because of the lack of siege. perhaps if we just made their normal attack collateral one other unit instead of the bombard attack?

Fine, but you need to make the tech requirement clear in the design post.

crap i havent done that haha. bugger.

Any changes I should review?

yeh pls :)

I think dwarves are done (except we need some additional design work for runesmith runes).

Skaven look good.

Chaos tribes look fine (though they also need the corruption of chaos religious units).

Orcs and goblins look ok. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=301877&page=2

Brettonnia and Empire look ok.

ill get to them later on today.

and PL will get very angry if you try to remove them. You wouldn't like him when he's angry :)

good to see you're learning ahri ;) haha

Why do we have 2 units for the slots in both Troll and Giant, for the WEs? And Unicorns, no offense to them, but I'd like to nix them. Too huggable, ya know, Princess rule.

what Ahri said, plus all those units are essential for a propper woodelf army.

Woodelves are all updated now.

Ahri, have you checked the HE and DE too?
 
Ideally UUs, but a mix of both can work.

We're talking probably 2 units per faction mostly, with maybe a third.
Something at priesthood, something at fanaticism.

And ideally a UB temple for each faction.

all spirituality factions are Oriental, so id say Monk and Sohei Warrior, as the main ones. but then have UUs of them for some civs (like araby)
 
Any changes I should review?

I didn't notice any changes to Kislev.
I changed my mind though, I think they probably should be able to build normal (or weakened) pikemen after all though. Every other faction in the game gets something in that slot.
Also, we should fix my references to light cavalry to make the refer to lancers instead.
Otherwise seems fine.

On Beastmen:
I dislike troll vomit intensely on two counts. a) Its a stupid effect that shouldn't have any real combat value and b) its far too powerful on such an early unit, and one that is already powerful in its own right.

I dislike Stupidity as you have elsewhere as well. Its going to screw up the AI, because the AI moves stacks around. 1 unit in the stack that gets a "can't move" because of stupidity will hold the entire AI stack there. It breaks the AI.

As discussed in the beastmen thread, I dislike using separate tainted forest vs ancient forest. It means we have to go through every forest effect in the game and every mounted unit and add an extra tainted forest bonus or penalty, and it serves no real purpose.
There is no real design gain from having both, but it adds a lot of clutter.

The purpose of the Shaman's lodge is not bizarre at all; its to guarantee dyes access for wartatoos. The beastmen units don't use metal weapons, but they can all get wartats, and so they can get this from the shaman's lodge.

The random mutations were orlanth's idea, I have no objection to removing them; they also existed before your "twisted" trait idea.

Is it really a Shaggoth and not a Shoggoth?
If you want to have two versions, then lets weaken the Dragon ogre and increase its national limit to 3 (like efreeti, wyverns etc) and have a limit of 1 on the upgrade.
So: dragon ogre = strength 10/6+4lightning.
Shoggoth = strength 12/8 + 6 lightning.
 
High elf changes:
I am indifferent which unit is Phoenix guard and which is White lions. Whatever you think works better.
I should remind you that bodyguard is *not* an unambiguously beneficial promotion. It makes the unit more likely to be the stack defender even over the top of other units that have a higher win ratio.
So I suggest you think very carefully about the longbowmen UU; do you really want the longbowmen to be stepping in front of charging knights or lancers and getting squashed (because of vulnerability to shock cavalry) instead of letting the spearmen take the hit?

Phoenix guard is too strong now; strength 4 + 2 holy +1 fire AND metal weapons means strength 9 with iron weapons.

On dark elves:
Druichii promotion should give +5% chance to capture slaves. Maybe remove the first strike chance to help balance this?

Blitz is pretty useless on an archer unit, unless it lets it use its bombard attack twice?

You should make sure to add "requires horses" to all the cavalry for all the factions when you add them; I was too lazy and forgot before.


Cold One knights need lower strength. Knights are not a dark elf speciality in this mod, so their knights need to be weaker than normal, particularly since they also cause fear.

Manticore requires aerie.

Warchariot is blocked (not a civ strength).
Do Dark Elves really get the White Tower wonder? looks like copy paste error.

Otherwise seems fine.
 
Phoenix guard is too strong now; strength 4 + 2 holy +1 fire AND metal weapons means strength 9 with iron weapons.
In reference to my XML code...For the record, the Crusader HE UU is the White Lions. (Not trying to be a dick, but we need to be on the same page with names. Or just damn decide on which unit is which and decide. I have Phoenix Guard as the HE royal guard UU in the xml code. I can edit it in the code, prefer not to.) And I have not added the Crusader UUs yet. I didn't intend to add +1 fire to them. I intend to make them str 4+2holy. No fire. So, with iron, that'd mean 8str. I think for the era they'd be in and the units they'd be facing from everyone else (DEs most often), that's a good strength. I think we shouldn't give them +1 fire either. Like Ahri said, that'd be too strong.

Also, make the HE royal guard UU 8 str please. (And, again with the names, I have them as Phoenix Guard in the xml code.) Every other royal guard UU is. (Unless we reduced em all to 7.) Personally, 8 sounds better. For their era, I think they'd need it. They are sposed to be Elite units.


Cold One knights need lower strength. Knights are not a dark elf speciality in this mod, so their knights need to be weaker than normal, particularly since they also cause fear.
I disagree. Since neither DEs or HEs have a unit that their Knights can upgrade to at lvl 4. (For obvious reasons.) I say we remove the fear from the Cold Ones Knights and keep their strength at what it is now.
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
[RANT]
dude, cant you read?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas View Post
PLEASE DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD!
If you wish to discuss something that appears in this thread please start a NEW thread or go to the DESIGN DISCUSSION THREAD. (This includes you team members)
"Including team members."
and i have asked woodelf to stickey it and now im gonna have to ask him to delete your post. the reason i dont want anyone else to post in here is so that when i need more posts (because i will) i can keep them all in order.

[/RANT]​

Sorry about that, man. Only reason I did that was it was REALLY bugging me that that thread wasn't stickied. That will be the one & only time I EVER post in there. Will not happen again.​
 
a) Its a stupid effect that shouldn't have any real combat value

well, its in the rule book, its flavourful, and fun so why not. its not overpowered and give the troll a little more flexibility. plus if we give the troll vomit a cooldown period of say 3 turns it wont be its promary action and will be less powerful. also i forgot to mention to give it a damage cap of 20% as well. if its too strong just reduce it to 10% poison damage and 15% damage cap. it just a special attack it can do every so often.

I dislike Stupidity as you have elsewhere as well. Its going to screw up the AI, because the AI moves stacks around. 1 unit in the stack that gets a "can't move" because of stupidity will hold the entire AI stack there. It breaks the AI.

well then how about we change stupidity to -100% withdrawl and can only defend. dont make it held.
As discussed in the beastmen thread, I dislike using separate tainted forest vs ancient forest. It means we have to go through every forest effect in the game and every mounted unit and add an extra tainted forest bonus or penalty, and it serves no real purpose.
There is no real design gain from having both, but it adds a lot of clutter.

ah yes i forgot that sorry :blush:
The purpose of the Shaman's lodge is not bizarre at all; its to guarantee dyes access for wartatoos. The beastmen units don't use metal weapons, but they can all get wartats, and so they can get this from the shaman's lodge.

fair enough. but the issue there is that they will have heaps of dye sources and will trade them out. not very beastmanny. it would be better, simpler and more balanced to make it just provide wartats to units built in (and that move onto?) the city.

Is it really a Shaggoth and not a Shoggoth?

yeh, thats what its called in the rule book.
If you want to have two versions, then lets weaken the Dragon ogre and increase its national limit to 3 (like efreeti, wyverns etc) and have a limit of 1 on the upgrade.
So: dragon ogre = strength 10/6+4lightning.
Shoggoth = strength 12/8 + 6 lightning.

sounds good.

on another note, all beastmen have an annoying (if youre fighting them) ability to become 'frenzied' when they are hit by lightning damge. i wonder if theres any way to represent this besides lightnign immunity?

Also, im not sure if you missed this:

"(Why all the random mutations? it takes the benefit away from the 'tainted' trait.)"

High elf changes:

well the handmaidens of the Everqueen are technically meant to have a spear AND a longbow, so they could *technically* get a benifit against cavalry too. but i thought that would be overpowered.

reduced phoenix guard by 1 holy. is that enough?

Dark elves:

all done.

and yeh the white tower thing is a mistake, and ive mental blanked on what it was called. :/ Con-something?
In reference to my XML code...For the record, the Crusader HE UU is the White Lions. (Not trying to be a dick, but we need to be on the same page with names. Or just damn decide on which unit is which and decide. I can edit it in the code, prefer not to.) And I have not added the Crusader UUs yet. I didn't intend to add +1 fire to them. I intend to make them str 4+2holy. No fire. So, with iron, that'd mean 8str. I think for the era they'd be in and the units they'd be facing from everyone else (DEs most often), that's a good strength. I think we shouldn't give them +1 fire either. Like Ahri said, that'd be too strong.

change it to how we have it here pls :p its not too hard, just a name change and changing the special damage type:

"White Lions (replaces royal guard) Strength 7. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. 'Bodyguard' Promotion. +25% vs melee units, +25 vs beast, +50% vs animal
Phoenix Guard (crusader) Strength 4 +1 holy, +1 Fire, can use metal weapons. +25% vs demon."

I say we remove the fear from the Cold Ones Knights and keep their strength at what it is now.

unusual argument, i thought you would have argued for fear? its a pretty important rule for the coldones... im not overly fussed just sayin ;)
 
Sorry about that, man. Only reason I did that was it was REALLY bugging me that that thread wasn't stickied. That will be the one & only time I EVER post in there. Will not happen again.

no worries. its not a big deal i just dont want people thinking they can post in there without getting a tongue-lashing...:hmm: thats a good name for a slaanesh spell :hmm:
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
reduced phoenix guard by 1 holy. is that enough?

Yay! Have to change the code now. Dammit.

Psychic_Llamas said:
and yeh the white tower thing is a mistake, and ive mental blanked on what it was called. :/ Con-something?

The Dark Convenant was its official name.
 
As far as Spirituality goes, that can popup in the Old World civs too right? Would Spirituality encourage warfare like Salvation obviously does (all those knights and inquisitors and crazy flagellants). If so what about having monkish units or Sohei (japanese warrior monks who fought with polearms). Oh and re: Subterranean, 10% food storage is not totally unflavorful, could represent underground food sources, or just the races penchant for storing extra food in case of siege :(
 
@ Ahri: more than half the table top units werent even mentioned in your Empire design Ahri.
where are the greatswords, warrior priests, hellblaster, flaggellants, duellists, and the many Knightly Orders need a mention too.
@ Deadliver, what units have you done for the Empire? just the ones in ahri's design?
 
@ Ahri: more than half the table top units werent even mentioned in your Empire design Ahri.
where are the greatswords, warrior priests, hellblaster, flaggellants, duellists, and the many Knightly Orders need a mention too.
@ Deadliver, what units have you done for the Empire? just the ones in ahri's design?

When I did the core xml I forgot to include disciples so those are not in the XML even if they were in Ahri's design. But yes I used the design post. I did not include knightly orders, warrior priests, hell blaster, flaggellants, duellists (aren't these dogs of war?)
 
I did not include knightly orders, warrior priests, hell blaster, flaggellants, duellists (aren't these dogs of war?)

ok well ill add these units to my Empire design in the overview thread. i dont think duellists are dogs of war... unless im mistaken?
 
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