Economy Civics, Which do you use?
- Thread starter ThorHammerz
- Start date
Robert FIN
Emperor
All of these come pretty late... Anyways, I almost never go with Mercantilism. That's because Free Market comes very soon and +1 
brings lots of 
. I've never used State Property much (probably because I'm noob in the game) and I don't know when its better to choose that option instead of FM... So most of us want the best amount of so we must think what are the situations when to get more income from FM and when from SP...
Big empires probably are more suited to SP based economy and smaller seafaring empires take more income from FM but where's the line?
Also SP comes later, so FM is very good option before SP comes around...
I also feel that at some point of the game Environmentalism is a must because factories make your cities so
!! That will cost you a lot of money though...
brings lots of . I've never used State Property much (probably because I'm noob in the game) and I don't know when its better to choose that option instead of FM... So most of us want the best amount of so we must think what are the situations when to get more income from FM and when from SP...Big empires probably are more suited to SP based economy and smaller seafaring empires take more income from FM but where's the line?
Also SP comes later, so FM is very good option before SP comes around...
I also feel that at some point of the game Environmentalism is a must because factories make your cities so
!! That will cost you a lot of money though...ThorHammerz
zzz
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I also feel that at some point of the game Environmentalism is a must because factories make your cities so
Well, Ecology (and Recycling Centres) isn't too off from Assembly Line, so hopefully our slav.... er, I mean our lovely peons don't drown too quickly in their
by-products before we give them more work to do
Rusty Edge
Deity
Don't get me wrong, politics aside, there's nothing wrong with State Property, or Panzers or Navy Seals, or Science Labs or Shopping Malls, or... well, maybe there is one thing wrong with all of that stuff.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
I also feel that at some point of the game Environmentalism is a must because factories make your cities so
With Public Transportation and resource trades, the factory alone shouldn't give you any real problems with
. Even with power, the is controllable. And as ThorHammerz already said, you're not far from Recycling plants or Supermarkets (I like these especially) which not only give the opportunity for 4
from resources, but also a little 
for assistance.Environmentalism is almost never worth the cost unless you are trying to maximize population for a bid in the UN. It's a sad message Firaxis is sending to us
MilesBeyond
Prince
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IMHO State Property and Free Market have a kind of Slavery/Caste System deal going on - the first option is almost always more powerful, but in certain situations the second can be better.
The maintenance costs alone that you save from SP will probably outweigh the commerce you bring in through FM's trade routes. The +10% production is nice, but what really boosts your production is the way it negates the food penalty from Workshops. Being able to work as many Workshops as you could Cottages can significantly boost a city's productivity.
Free Market is potentially very powerful but to get the most out of it you have to really go hard with corps.
Actually, you know what, the comparison with Labor civics seems to hold true all the way down, so let's continue with that.
Mercantilism is generally inferior except for in very specific situations - when you're either isolated, or at war with everyone you could have decent trade routes with. This makes it similar to Emancipation - a generally sub-par civic that's only really worth bothering with if the game situation more or less forces it.
Then you've got Environmentalism which is on par with Serfdom - they're both of limited use, and they both come far too late to take advantage of what little value they have. If they axed the corp maintenance penalty, then Environmentalism might actually be a bit more worthwhile, as it would synergize well with Sid's Sushi. The big problem with Environmentalism has been pointed out above, and that's the way that it provides health bonuses at a point in the game where those are already plentiful.
I'm really not a big fan of the Economy civics in general. The balance isn't great, and they come far too late in the game to be meaningful, or even realistic (I'm going to give Firaxis the benefit of the doubt and assume that no one there actually believes that economy systems were stagnant from the dawn of humanity through to the High Middle Ages).
It's always kind of bugged me that State Property has low civic maintenance and eliminates maintenance from distance. That's like, the exact opposite of how it works. Maintenance costs would increase because now all sorts of costs and expenditures are being fielded by the government. If anything, lower maintenance would make more sense for Free Market, where more and more work is handled by private investors rather than the state.
The maintenance costs alone that you save from SP will probably outweigh the commerce you bring in through FM's trade routes. The +10% production is nice, but what really boosts your production is the way it negates the food penalty from Workshops. Being able to work as many Workshops as you could Cottages can significantly boost a city's productivity.
Free Market is potentially very powerful but to get the most out of it you have to really go hard with corps.
Actually, you know what, the comparison with Labor civics seems to hold true all the way down, so let's continue with that.
Mercantilism is generally inferior except for in very specific situations - when you're either isolated, or at war with everyone you could have decent trade routes with. This makes it similar to Emancipation - a generally sub-par civic that's only really worth bothering with if the game situation more or less forces it.
Then you've got Environmentalism which is on par with Serfdom - they're both of limited use, and they both come far too late to take advantage of what little value they have. If they axed the corp maintenance penalty, then Environmentalism might actually be a bit more worthwhile, as it would synergize well with Sid's Sushi. The big problem with Environmentalism has been pointed out above, and that's the way that it provides health bonuses at a point in the game where those are already plentiful.
I'm really not a big fan of the Economy civics in general. The balance isn't great, and they come far too late in the game to be meaningful, or even realistic (I'm going to give Firaxis the benefit of the doubt and assume that no one there actually believes that economy systems were stagnant from the dawn of humanity through to the High Middle Ages).
It's always kind of bugged me that State Property has low civic maintenance and eliminates maintenance from distance. That's like, the exact opposite of how it works. Maintenance costs would increase because now all sorts of costs and expenditures are being fielded by the government. If anything, lower maintenance would make more sense for Free Market, where more and more work is handled by private investors rather than the state.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just don't think the food bonus to workshops is the biggest bonus from State Property unless you aren't dominating and getting a lot of cities on other land masses. And if that's the case, why not stay free market and get the 6-7 commerce per turn per city boost? Even with a single continent large empire you can mitigate most distance costs with Forbidden Palace.
As for State Property being lowered in maintenance costs instead of free market, it kinda makes sense. Corporations hyper-consume the resources, dodge taxes, and socialize their losses via bailouts subsidies and lobbying
. Really, the administrative costs of government are added to the administrative costs of the private company, and then the profit margin added in. So when the government goes to a private company to fix a bridge, the costs are much higher than they would be if only the material and labor were the source of cost. Now, if corruption were still a source of 
expenses (like civ3), State Property would have a high corruption cost (although Free Market would have plenty of its own as well).
As for State Property being lowered in maintenance costs instead of free market, it kinda makes sense. Corporations hyper-consume the resources, dodge taxes, and socialize their losses via bailouts subsidies and lobbying
. Really, the administrative costs of government are added to the administrative costs of the private company, and then the profit margin added in. So when the government goes to a private company to fix a bridge, the costs are much higher than they would be if only the material and labor were the source of cost. Now, if corruption were still a source of expenses (like civ3), State Property would have a high corruption cost (although Free Market would have plenty of its own as well).
AW Arcaeca
Deus Vult
Higher pop = moreAgressiveWimp, may I ask why you voted Environmentalism? Do you traditionally play for diplomatic victory? (higher
+ my inability to efficiently manage and 
+ jungles being useless + not using corps anyway = environmentalismNow until that point, yeah, I always run Free Market. Mercantilism sounds like the worst thing you could do to your economy - doesn't it cut out foreign trade routes? i.e. The ones that produce the most commerce? And I've never gotten my empire big enough to need SP
. So I run FM until I get ecology/medicine/whatever it is that unlocks environmentalism which I can't think of off the top of my head, when I then, of necessity, switch to environmentalism.No I don't go Diplo, the AI all get too pissed off at me for that to ever happen
Usually cultural or tech, although since I usually start falling behind on tech I change gears towards cultural victory, but by then it's too late - should've been putting 100% in CV the whole game instead of 50% for CV and 50% SV. I say usually because I'm proud to say I beat my first Noble game via domination!Plz don't judge me I'm trying
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
No judgements, man! I had a hard time at noble, too. It's the first difficulty where you don't get any bonuses vs AI. If you are interested in moving up to the higher levels, though, you'll probably start winning games earlier than Environmentalism. Additionally, you'll find better ways into and use a more efficient late game economic civic option.
Next time you go for a domination win, try switching to State Property after your first intercontinental invasion. In the cities that would normally overgrow their health limit, replace farm tiles with workshops until you max out production and have those cities mass produce units. With SP, grassland workshops have 23
and plains workshops have 14. You'll also find yourself able to move up the science slider. With SP domination wins, it's a snowball effect b/c the more cities you conquer, the more you have, the more 
you have and not so much maintenance (particularly on lower levels).
and use a more efficient late game economic civic option.Next time you go for a domination win, try switching to State Property after your first intercontinental invasion. In the cities that would normally overgrow their health limit, replace farm tiles with workshops until you max out production and have those cities mass produce units. With SP, grassland workshops have 2
3 and plains workshops have 14. You'll also find yourself able to move up the science slider. With SP domination wins, it's a snowball effect b/c the more cities you conquer, the more you have, the more you have and not so much maintenance (particularly on lower levels).MilesBeyond
Prince
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Sorry, that was a bit unclear on my end. What I meant is that the Workshop bonus will probably be a bigger boost to production than the +10% hammers. It's certainly not better than the reduced maintenance.
Merc is just a pain, and is only barely worth the improvement over decentralization for me if I'm running republic, and even then I won't anarchy to get it (but I'll think about it during a GA, if I do one). FM as early as possible gets that inflation adjustment sooner. Basically, if I'm not sprawling over a huge continent to the point distance is killing me (and I often save a GE to build Versailles, so with the FP and that, it takes a BIG empire to do that) I run FM as much of the game as I can. I tend to focus on tech over production, and try to hoard some cash, so I outclass my opponents pretty solidly (e.g., trebs against archers, which means a troop of girlscouts could clean up whatever mess is left). That makes the science slider matter to me more, militarily, than production most of the time. If things go well, I have infantry for my last push, and infantry against longbowmen around 1100 AD makes for a pretty easy walk. Especially because they're mostly promoted swardsmen and stuff, so a lot of CR III and a few with cover makes it silly. That cash to promote old units is worth a lot more than the ability to produce new ones, IMO.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
^^^ Sounds like someone needs to move up a level 
ThorHammerz
zzz
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It's not particularly rare to end up with a ton of cash by mid-late game if you've tailored your economy to do so (along w/ tech pawning). Especially when you can drop your sliders to convert a significant proportion of your into (by then, markets + grocers + banks = +100% gold) for several turns at a time.
Even without Versailles, unless you're playing on a (really) large map with multiple different continents and colony cities all over the place, forbidden palace is usually enough to clamp down on distance-maintenance costs.
Tons of cash + Universal Suffrage is essentially the same as drafting units.... without the 3's, or the population hit. Kremlin makes it even stronger.
Although, does anyone else find how Communism unlocks a wonder that makes bribing (because that's what spending gold w/ U.S. really is... ) your population/bureaucrats/businesses to build things faster/cheaper, to be a little bit ironic? One would think it would cost 10x more (looking at you Sochi2014).
into (by then, markets + grocers + banks = +100% gold) for several turns at a time.Even without Versailles, unless you're playing on a (really) large map with multiple different continents and colony cities all over the place, forbidden palace is usually enough to clamp down on distance-maintenance costs.
Tons of cash + Universal Suffrage is essentially the same as drafting units.... without the 3
's, or the population hit. Kremlin makes it even stronger. Although, does anyone else find how Communism unlocks a wonder that makes bribing (because that's what spending gold w/ U.S. really is
... ) your population/bureaucrats/businesses to build things faster/cheaper, to be a little bit ironic? One would think it would cost 10x more (looking at you Sochi2014). 
Lennier
Emperor
Probably out of laziness I use State Property the most. Setting up corporations and getting executives going takes more time. I like being able to get new cities on line quickly with watermills and workshops and not worrying about the distance factor. I'm not saying it's necessarily better than Free Market, just that it works better for my style of play.
I noticed my vote tied State Property and Free Market, which is about what I would expect. Both are powerful and either can be best in a given situation but most players stick with one or the other.
It's also possible the habit carries over from RFC, where a larger empire needs SP to stay stable.
I noticed my vote tied State Property and Free Market, which is about what I would expect. Both are powerful and either can be best in a given situation but most players stick with one or the other.
It's also possible the habit carries over from RFC, where a larger empire needs SP to stay stable.
civfanchambers
Prince
Free market works best on Pangaea maps, or other where you can build a centralized empire, with your capitol and supporting cities not being to lopsided. With forbidden palace / Versailles maintenance isn't really a problem. Now when playing continents, fractal, or islands, and playing as a warmonger state property becomes more useful. Numerous times my economy has been saved from overseas invasion by switching to state property, and with little effort you can beeline thru techs to get SP. Overall I prefer FM but love SP when I'm warring later game.
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
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One thing to note is that there's usually a period when everyone discovers Banking and switches to Mercantilism (the AI loves new stuff), which often makes my external trade routes disappear anyway. If that's the case and I'm Spiritual, I'll switch to Merc myself for as long as that period takes, but that's about it.
Of late, I've noticed that more and more often I won't even bother to switch to Free Market when I get Economics, staying without economic civic - not because it's better, but because by that time my Cuirassier/Cavalry stomp is in full force, I won't have to research much longer anyway, and I'd rather lose some commerce than spend one turn in Anarchy and have less troops to conquer. Of course, not every game can be ended that early, but it happens more often than I thought.
If the game goes longer, I absolutely will take State Property over Free Market if I'm not going for space. Free Market really requires Corps to overtake SP, and these take too many ressources to set up, with the possible exception of Sushi for diplomatic wins (which is a pity because I quite like the concept).
Of late, I've noticed that more and more often I won't even bother to switch to Free Market when I get Economics, staying without economic civic - not because it's better, but because by that time my Cuirassier/Cavalry stomp is in full force, I won't have to research much longer anyway, and I'd rather lose some commerce than spend one turn in Anarchy and have less troops to conquer. Of course, not every game can be ended that early, but it happens more often than I thought.
If the game goes longer, I absolutely will take State Property over Free Market if I'm not going for space. Free Market really requires Corps to overtake SP, and these take too many ressources to set up, with the possible exception of Sushi for diplomatic wins (which is a pity because I quite like the concept).
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Actually, I think a more accurate statement would be that State Property requires a large empire and military victory to overtake Free Market even without corps (except for Space Race which infinitely benefits from Mining Inc). Even vassal-rolling for conquest can abuse the extra trade route from FM without the worry of distance/colonial maintenance.
drewisfat
King
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No.
Georgejorge has made the best post on this so far
Free market is pretty much poop. So far people have argued here that it's better with bigger empires, better with smaller empires, better on pangaea maps, etc. Part of the reasoning in all of these is valid, which actually leads to the demise of the civic as a good option.
1. "You don't need SP if you don't have a big empire".
- Sure SP helps more if your empire is big. FM helps A LOT more if your empire is big. The only reason you would get FM is to run corporations -- corporations need a lot of resources to be worthwhile (namely mining corp has to grant you enough hammers).
2. You need SP for big empires.
- This is still true though! And that's the problem. It still costs a ton of hammers in infrastructure to lower maintenance costs, and you probably wouldn't get more gold from the trade routes then you'd lose to high maintenance. And of course, you get no +10% hammers or food to workshops.
3. FM is good on pangaea (where you don't need SP maintenance reduction)
- Revert to earlier point about not having resources. But what's worse is on pangaea the game ends a lot faster, and so your economy stops mattering a lot sooner. As george points out on a normal pangaea map you're cuir rushing by the time you have FM open, and it's not even worth the turn of revolt even if SP/merc weren't options.
FM makes some sense if you're set on a peaceful late space race game.
The main reason people run FM and not SP is simple. They don't like workshops. They look yucky. Lowering food (initially) and increasing hammers isn't nearly as fun as just more food or more gold. But workshops are actually boss once you get to chemistry and run SP/caste. The fact that this coincides with the strongest breakout (cuirs) makes it all the better.
Limiting your actions to things that are Pareto efficient is toxic on civ. You will build virtually all the infrastructure, your investments will take way too long to pay off, and you will start trying to win your games in the 19-20 centuries. But there's a cutoff usually around emperor level where you won't be able to outtech or outbuild the AI consistently like this.
TLDR: The economics civics come too late, and the main issue at that point should be production not commerce. SP has +10% immediately, and if you commit to running workshops your empire's production can pretty much double or triple when your workers are done improving. FM doesn't help production until centuries later with mining corp.
Its only the icing on the cake that usually if you're playing to win your empire will be big enough at this time that you save more gold with SP then you would gain with FM.
Georgejorge has made the best post on this so far
Free market is pretty much poop. So far people have argued here that it's better with bigger empires, better with smaller empires, better on pangaea maps, etc. Part of the reasoning in all of these is valid, which actually leads to the demise of the civic as a good option.
1. "You don't need SP if you don't have a big empire".
- Sure SP helps more if your empire is big. FM helps A LOT more if your empire is big. The only reason you would get FM is to run corporations -- corporations need a lot of resources to be worthwhile (namely mining corp has to grant you enough hammers).
2. You need SP for big empires.
- This is still true though! And that's the problem. It still costs a ton of hammers in infrastructure to lower maintenance costs, and you probably wouldn't get more gold from the trade routes then you'd lose to high maintenance. And of course, you get no +10% hammers or food to workshops.
3. FM is good on pangaea (where you don't need SP maintenance reduction)
- Revert to earlier point about not having resources. But what's worse is on pangaea the game ends a lot faster, and so your economy stops mattering a lot sooner. As george points out on a normal pangaea map you're cuir rushing by the time you have FM open, and it's not even worth the turn of revolt even if SP/merc weren't options.
FM makes some sense if you're set on a peaceful late space race game.
The main reason people run FM and not SP is simple. They don't like workshops. They look yucky. Lowering food (initially) and increasing hammers isn't nearly as fun as just more food or more gold. But workshops are actually boss once you get to chemistry and run SP/caste. The fact that this coincides with the strongest breakout (cuirs) makes it all the better.
Limiting your actions to things that are Pareto efficient is toxic on civ. You will build virtually all the infrastructure, your investments will take way too long to pay off, and you will start trying to win your games in the 19-20 centuries. But there's a cutoff usually around emperor level where you won't be able to outtech or outbuild the AI consistently like this.
TLDR: The economics civics come too late, and the main issue at that point should be production not commerce. SP has +10% immediately, and if you commit to running workshops your empire's production can pretty much double or triple when your workers are done improving. FM doesn't help production until centuries later with mining corp.
Its only the icing on the cake that usually if you're playing to win your empire will be big enough at this time that you save more gold with SP then you would gain with FM.
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