How do i win science victory really early?
- Thread starter Josias140
- Start date
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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- Sep 6, 2013
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There are fast science victory guides in the war academy tab, it's a bit complex to learn just from friendly comments as there are so many factors and things.
A few tips:
1. Learn worker stealing and do it fast
2. Play on Deity for the best times for the easy acquisition of the AI gold
3. standard, 4-city, fast national college, max growth is the main idea. Use most of your trade routes for growth and make sure you acquire the happiness to keep it going for as long as possible.
4. Save, steal, or borrow money to buy most of the science buildings as soon as you get the techs
5. Always open rationalism as soon as possible and get the +2 science from specialists, and 17% to universities as quickly as possible.
6. Pick freedom ideology and get down to buy space procurements
7. Next fill out rationalism, then aim for the 25% off gold purchases tenet in commerce
8. Save your scientists, buy as many as you can with saved faith, then run research for 10 turns at the end and burn them all one turn at a time to research all the critical techs for spaceship very quickly, then get gold/aluminum from the AI and buy most of them to launch quickly.
9. I think most players that get the fastest times are playing either Korea or Babylon and plant one early academy if Korea.
This is the general idea, but even doing all that it will take practice and luck to get "the fastest".
Once you have the main steps down the biggest thing that makes the difference between T240 SV and T190 is luck: AI behavior, how good your start is, warlike AI and whether or not they can be bribed off, how long you can get away with a puny military, etc. Most players play standard/pangaea for the best odds as you meet everyone quickly for early trades and won't be stuck alone with a warlike neighbor.
If you want a competitive time I think most players reroll the map till they get something like a coastal/river/mountain start with solid resources. You absolutely have to have coastal for the fastest growth as ship food routes are far superior and the mountain observatory bonus is huge in a capital you are already feeding, planting academies, getting NC, etc. River is the lesser requirement but having riverside boosted food tiles and later the hydro plant and the extra gold from running from a river city is all very nice.
A few tips:
1. Learn worker stealing and do it fast
2. Play on Deity for the best times for the easy acquisition of the AI gold
3. standard, 4-city, fast national college, max growth is the main idea. Use most of your trade routes for growth and make sure you acquire the happiness to keep it going for as long as possible.
4. Save, steal, or borrow money to buy most of the science buildings as soon as you get the techs
5. Always open rationalism as soon as possible and get the +2 science from specialists, and 17% to universities as quickly as possible.
6. Pick freedom ideology and get down to buy space procurements
7. Next fill out rationalism, then aim for the 25% off gold purchases tenet in commerce
8. Save your scientists, buy as many as you can with saved faith, then run research for 10 turns at the end and burn them all one turn at a time to research all the critical techs for spaceship very quickly, then get gold/aluminum from the AI and buy most of them to launch quickly.
9. I think most players that get the fastest times are playing either Korea or Babylon and plant one early academy if Korea.
This is the general idea, but even doing all that it will take practice and luck to get "the fastest".
Once you have the main steps down the biggest thing that makes the difference between T240 SV and T190 is luck: AI behavior, how good your start is, warlike AI and whether or not they can be bribed off, how long you can get away with a puny military, etc. Most players play standard/pangaea for the best odds as you meet everyone quickly for early trades and won't be stuck alone with a warlike neighbor.
If you want a competitive time I think most players reroll the map till they get something like a coastal/river/mountain start with solid resources. You absolutely have to have coastal for the fastest growth as ship food routes are far superior and the mountain observatory bonus is huge in a capital you are already feeding, planting academies, getting NC, etc. River is the lesser requirement but having riverside boosted food tiles and later the hydro plant and the extra gold from running from a river city is all very nice.
phillipwyllie
Wannabe Deity
We Love the King Day, don't underestimate it.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Yes, those tips are quite good, especially for new player who wants win fast SV.
No, the most important factor is still player skill, followed by good land.
While in theory you're right, getting such start would require endless re-rolls, that's why fastest SVs come from great plain maps (no coast, but lots of mountains).
@Josias140 For more tips you can see thread about SV in my signature, or more recent this one: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=563022
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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- Sep 6, 2013
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thanks IronFighter! I was hoping someone would follow up with more details. 
I meant after you had increased your skill level then land becomes more important to further improve your time. "luck" may have been a bad choice of words, because this is controllable by rerolling, but I was referring the start and the neighbors when I said "luck". I agree that between players the biggest variance in time is player skill level.
I meant after you had increased your skill level then land becomes more important to further improve your time. "luck" may have been a bad choice of words, because this is controllable by rerolling, but I was referring the start and the neighbors when I said "luck". I agree that between players the biggest variance in time is player skill level.
lindsay40k
Emperor
Why fill out Freedom before Rationalism?
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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^^^
Generally I fill out rationalism down to the 17% from research labs, +1 science from trading posts, and 2 science from specialists. The other ones in the tree are less useful then freedom which reduces unhappiness and enhances late-game growth allowing you to quickly work all your specialists for loads of extra science and synergize with rationalism. These are far more powerful then a few boosted RA's or gold from science buildings. The idea though is after you get through freedom come back and finish rationalism before commerce to be able to faith buy a few scientists. That is the only reason worth filling out rationalism as even the mercantilism policy is better then the bottom 2 in the rationalism tree. Make sense? You only need it for the very end of the game.
Generally I fill out rationalism down to the 17% from research labs, +1 science from trading posts, and 2 science from specialists. The other ones in the tree are less useful then freedom which reduces unhappiness and enhances late-game growth allowing you to quickly work all your specialists for loads of extra science and synergize with rationalism. These are far more powerful then a few boosted RA's or gold from science buildings. The idea though is after you get through freedom come back and finish rationalism before commerce to be able to faith buy a few scientists. That is the only reason worth filling out rationalism as even the mercantilism policy is better then the bottom 2 in the rationalism tree. Make sense? You only need it for the very end of the game.
lindsay40k
Emperor
I can see the value in the level 2 Tenets, but getting the level 3 ages before SS parts are available doesn't seem as handy as getting GS bulbs as soon as research plateaus or getting Commerce boosts sooner to build up the NASA budget?
lindsay40k
Emperor
Yeah, there's a calculation that could be done comparing:
- beaker yield of late game rationalism finisher getting a top of tree tech
- beaker yield of earlier finisher increasing strength of research agreements before they become prohibitively expensive & compete with SS parts, and of earlier bulb chain giving quicker access to supporting buildings (marginal, but that's where a turn is shaved off) and ISS/Hubble
Question: does the Patronage policy that gives ally beakers factor into this? If you're Greece or Siam, you'll be juggling your SS money with ally bonuses.
- beaker yield of late game rationalism finisher getting a top of tree tech
- beaker yield of earlier finisher increasing strength of research agreements before they become prohibitively expensive & compete with SS parts, and of earlier bulb chain giving quicker access to supporting buildings (marginal, but that's where a turn is shaved off) and ISS/Hubble
Question: does the Patronage policy that gives ally beakers factor into this? If you're Greece or Siam, you'll be juggling your SS money with ally bonuses.
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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oh yeah, not all the way to space procurements. You only need that AFTER rationalism, I should have been more specific. I thought you were asking why put points into freedom at all before. xD Mercantilism and space procurements you only need right at the end and can pick up with late writers or free policies from wonders.
lindsay40k
Emperor
Let's talk about Religion. Suppose you've got a solid source of Faith, be it your Pantheon or fortunate NWs or your Uniques or even a couple of Religious CS neighbours who make friends early on. That's going to present choices that can play a role in your victory date, be it as springboards or as wastes of effort.
- Building Great Temple
- Using Interfaith Dialogue to get a lot of early beakers
- Spending enough early Faith/Hammers (Boro) on Missionaries to get Pilgrimage to return more GS Faith
- - Opening Piety to build Djenne
- - Taking Mandate of Heaven for cheaper Missionaries / getting four Pagodas built faster
- Planting GPs to generate GS Faith
- - Filling Piety to get an extra Holy Site and Jesuit Education
What's the general rules of thumb, here? I guess you can forget about filling Piety if you're not Poland, Polynesia or Aztec...
- Building Great Temple
- Using Interfaith Dialogue to get a lot of early beakers
- Spending enough early Faith/Hammers (Boro) on Missionaries to get Pilgrimage to return more GS Faith
- - Opening Piety to build Djenne
- - Taking Mandate of Heaven for cheaper Missionaries / getting four Pagodas built faster
- Planting GPs to generate GS Faith
- - Filling Piety to get an extra Holy Site and Jesuit Education
What's the general rules of thumb, here? I guess you can forget about filling Piety if you're not Poland, Polynesia or Aztec...
danaphanous
religious fanatic
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2013
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- 1,501
I play religion a lot in my science games but I'm not as optimal of a player as IronFighter so some of this will be guesswork from my own experience.
1. You should never fill piety yourself, it isn't worth it, especially not on Deity because it seems like 1/3 of the AI fill it themselves in BNW and they love to take Jesuit Education. Commerce is the best filler tree for science victory because of the extra gold and gold reduction purchase costs. Occasionally the guy who choices Jesuit edu. spreads it too you, but very rarely does this correspond to you having the faith to use it early unless you have your own religion and then it is of limited value to replace your own which has other benefits. There have been a few games where it has quick-bought a few science buildings but I wouldn't incorporate it into any strategy you want to count on. If you see it happen, you might build some faith gen so you can buy some public schools and research labs faster. This can be advantageous if you can't get the money and they are slow in places.
2. Religion DOES help in purchasing great scientists but because the faith-bought scientists scale pretty rapidly, usually it's unlikely in a normal game you'd be able to faith-buy more then 3 anyway. Because you can get enough faith for 1 or 2 without even investing in religion and just building a few shrines when you have the time or buying a few religious buildings from foreign civs it doesn't make a huge impact. If your faith rate after industrial is around 25 fpt you should have enough for 2 scientists. I play more liberty games so this is pretty easy to reach. If you can incorporate faith buildings early into your build order they definitely help. The extra happiness and culture is a boon to midgame growth and the faith they generate will later score you the scientists you need without much other investment. On a good religious game with a faith building I can reliably get 3 scientists from faith.
3. Grand temple is far less important then many other things, but if you have the time sure, build it for the 8 faith. The pressure comes usually after the critical time has passed to spread your religion but it is a good defense against a strong neighboring religion and quite possible to get midgame with tradition.
4. Interfaith dialogue is not worth it in my opinion. It can get you a few extra techs midgame but it requires you to build a lot of missionaries to make it worth it and that faith is better saved for scientists. Also, in the science games I've played it has never made me actually be farther ahead by the end of the game. It might could in the case of lower difficulties but with Deity you get discounts on tech, trade route science, and can use spies to steal for being behind midgame anyway so that stuff ends up canceling the gains you might make with I.D. The best pick for a taller game if you have a religion is tithes. It will net you a bit of extra money which helps to more quickly buy science buildings as soon as you get the tech, and the spaceship parts later.
5. You are unlikely to get any of the religious wonders unless you are playing emperor or below and they come at a time when you really want to be building other things in your capital. I usually skip them these days.
6. Usually I only buy one missionary, if that, and just let passive pressure do its work. Also having a religion makes you a target by agressive AI with propets on the higher difficulties so you usually have to waste a lot of time blocking them or buy inquisitors which wastes even more faith.
So in summary, does religion help you win science faster? Yes, it makes it easier to faith-buy an extra scientist or two at the end of the game. But usually it only will result in you getting one more then you would've so it takes maybe 8 turns off. So my rule is if the terrain looks like it might be good for a pantheon, I build an early shrine to give it a shot, but don't waste too much energy into it or you'll just lose that 8 turn advantage in other ways. A lot of players just ignore religion and buy AI religious buildings. To do this you just build shrines in your cities later afte they've finished their libraries and other critical things and then start buying when you get enough faith. Usually the fastest times come from playing Deity because they have so much money you can trade for and their trade routes give you a lot more early science since they are ahead. Because of this and because religions are a gamble on Deity it really depends on the map whether or not it's worth it. I might found 40% of the time if I'm trying to play optimally, basically only when it is low-effort.
1. You should never fill piety yourself, it isn't worth it, especially not on Deity because it seems like 1/3 of the AI fill it themselves in BNW and they love to take Jesuit Education. Commerce is the best filler tree for science victory because of the extra gold and gold reduction purchase costs. Occasionally the guy who choices Jesuit edu. spreads it too you, but very rarely does this correspond to you having the faith to use it early unless you have your own religion and then it is of limited value to replace your own which has other benefits. There have been a few games where it has quick-bought a few science buildings but I wouldn't incorporate it into any strategy you want to count on. If you see it happen, you might build some faith gen so you can buy some public schools and research labs faster. This can be advantageous if you can't get the money and they are slow in places.
2. Religion DOES help in purchasing great scientists but because the faith-bought scientists scale pretty rapidly, usually it's unlikely in a normal game you'd be able to faith-buy more then 3 anyway. Because you can get enough faith for 1 or 2 without even investing in religion and just building a few shrines when you have the time or buying a few religious buildings from foreign civs it doesn't make a huge impact. If your faith rate after industrial is around 25 fpt you should have enough for 2 scientists. I play more liberty games so this is pretty easy to reach. If you can incorporate faith buildings early into your build order they definitely help. The extra happiness and culture is a boon to midgame growth and the faith they generate will later score you the scientists you need without much other investment. On a good religious game with a faith building I can reliably get 3 scientists from faith.
3. Grand temple is far less important then many other things, but if you have the time sure, build it for the 8 faith. The pressure comes usually after the critical time has passed to spread your religion but it is a good defense against a strong neighboring religion and quite possible to get midgame with tradition.
4. Interfaith dialogue is not worth it in my opinion. It can get you a few extra techs midgame but it requires you to build a lot of missionaries to make it worth it and that faith is better saved for scientists. Also, in the science games I've played it has never made me actually be farther ahead by the end of the game. It might could in the case of lower difficulties but with Deity you get discounts on tech, trade route science, and can use spies to steal for being behind midgame anyway so that stuff ends up canceling the gains you might make with I.D. The best pick for a taller game if you have a religion is tithes. It will net you a bit of extra money which helps to more quickly buy science buildings as soon as you get the tech, and the spaceship parts later.
5. You are unlikely to get any of the religious wonders unless you are playing emperor or below and they come at a time when you really want to be building other things in your capital. I usually skip them these days.
6. Usually I only buy one missionary, if that, and just let passive pressure do its work. Also having a religion makes you a target by agressive AI with propets on the higher difficulties so you usually have to waste a lot of time blocking them or buy inquisitors which wastes even more faith.
So in summary, does religion help you win science faster? Yes, it makes it easier to faith-buy an extra scientist or two at the end of the game. But usually it only will result in you getting one more then you would've so it takes maybe 8 turns off. So my rule is if the terrain looks like it might be good for a pantheon, I build an early shrine to give it a shot, but don't waste too much energy into it or you'll just lose that 8 turn advantage in other ways. A lot of players just ignore religion and buy AI religious buildings. To do this you just build shrines in your cities later afte they've finished their libraries and other critical things and then start buying when you get enough faith. Usually the fastest times come from playing Deity because they have so much money you can trade for and their trade routes give you a lot more early science since they are ahead. Because of this and because religions are a gamble on Deity it really depends on the map whether or not it's worth it. I might found 40% of the time if I'm trying to play optimally, basically only when it is low-effort.
I find that getting a religion is really nice for faster victories, but it's really hard to make much use of it without a really strong faith start (NW or desert folklore). Often times, the religion is just stuck in my capital and the only thing it's doing for me is reliquary faith and a little growth boost. Often times, I end up planting the 200 faith GP.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
For me best using religion for fast SV is (assuming standard tradition 4-5 cities strategy):
- SiP and tithe as first beliefs
- second GP to spread religion to owned cities
- religious community as enhanced belief
- stockpiling faith from that point and buy 2 or 3(desert folklore) GSs in the end
dasaard200
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2014
- Messages
- 315
Usually, when I kick off the Religious Wars, after I've founded mine, is to kill off the Bozo who sent a GProphet or Missionary(MSSY) of a useless (to me) religion; USEFUL ones (stuff they have, but I didn't get) get to live a little longer ... after a taken city's resistance dies down, it's courthouse, shrine and temple (if needed), then R.buildings as I can afford them .
This will get the snowball rolling in FaithPT, allowing outer, smaller cities to be converted (by USEFUL R.People), R.buildings built, and I'll come back to re-convert, and build MY R.buildings; pushing a snowball into an avalanche !
When pushing 250+ FPT, buying GScientists gets done real fast .
This will get the snowball rolling in FaithPT, allowing outer, smaller cities to be converted (by USEFUL R.People), R.buildings built, and I'll come back to re-convert, and build MY R.buildings; pushing a snowball into an avalanche !
When pushing 250+ FPT, buying GScientists gets done real fast .
This is pretty random, how is this going to help getting fast science victory? I can guarantee that you won't be able to do this since on deity if you can get that much faith that meant you conquered so many cities that will stun your science rate making fast victory impossible.
lindsay40k
Emperor
It can happen if you got Desert Folklore or Spain + good NW... and you got Pilgrimage... and your neighbour built Stonehenge for you... and you're lucky with luxes... and R.buildings... and the planets are in alignment
