Hey guys,
I want to thank all the users on this forum for providing such good feedback on our discussions and having some fun on the riddle game thread. Without your advice I'd probably still be shaking my fist at Alex for being such a douche.
For the civ deity tier list, I know a lot of people voted for Poland as the easiest civ to play on, and afterwards the civs that give science bonuses: Babylon, Korea, Maya, etc.
But strictly speaking, Poland's UA does not really fit into the category of a science bonus, but rather a culture bonus, because ultimately it "gives extra culture". But even for a science victory, Poland is very strong, here's why I think it's on par with Babylon/Korea
Looking at the science game, if you never bulb any scientists, then there is a total amount of beakers you have to put in, which roughly translates to a certain number of turns the average vanilla civ would need. Of course, you can sign a number of RAs that get boosted by Porcelain Tower, and that will speed up your tech. Also, most players would steal techs very strategically so that they get expensive techs and fill cheap techs while waiting for theft. But overall, the number of turns it takes to finish all the techs for SV is around 350 turns, if I were to venture a guess.
When taking into account scientist bulbing, each scientist bulb saves roughly 8 turns, because the most efficient way of bulbing is when tech rate has plateaued. On average, for a science game, it's possible to generate around 6-8 from slots, 2 from hubble, and 2-3 from faith(rationalism finisher). The total comes out to 10-13 scientists, or equivalent of 9*8=72 to 12*8=96.
Here's where Babylon is better than Korea, because under most circumstances certain specialist slots will not be worked, especially early on. The science bonus from specialists accumulated might be 22 slots(6 culture and 16 scientist slots from 4 cities) over an overestimated time of 200 turns. That comes out to 4400 beakers. Korea does have a boost equivalent to an RA when a science building is done in capital, but that only gives out roughly 4 RAs more, whereas Babylon can easily generate at least 4 more scientists.
However, Korea is recognized as one of the best civs due to its science oriented civ, and most other civs can achieve the tech requirements in time. Babylon does it much faster but it easily reaches the culture bottleneck. By that I mean in a standard game, playing for science ultimately comes down to primary tree tradition/liberty + rationalism + ideology. rationalism is good for other victory conditions especially on deity, but it's almost a requirement in SV because the late game scientists bought with faith can shorten your game by 16-24 turns. For ideologies you would also want to get a third level tenet, which all adds up to 6+6+6=18 policies taken, including openers and taking dibs on ideologies. All this means that you need to keep those city states, and you don't have many cultural wonders or culture from cities. But even so, in an article called "mathematics of civ" the author concludes that your city culture should be less than 7/3 of CS provided culture to make expansion worthwhile (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389702). My claim here is that you can cut down on the turns to finish in tech by generating as many great scientists and signing as many RAs as possible, but players will reach the culture bottleneck quite early. The tech requirements for a SV is relatively lower and more flexible than the cultural requirements, and most of the time playing for science usually results in not enough culture for many necessary policies because you neglected it or you "tech too fast". Another reason why Oracle and SoL/Kremlin/Prora are good, and WF is a good proposal.
This makes Siam somewhat more appealing, but most importantly it shows why Poland is so strong. You get free policies for going forward in tech, and since everyone needs to do it, there's nothing special one needs to adjust to in terms of gameplay. You don't get extra culture or anything like the CV oriented civs, but just outright policies, which in the late game are worth 1000+ culture. The timing is also incredibly good, since it's technically connected to your tech rate. You get free rationalism the moment you hit renaissance, and the two earlier bonuses can help you finish the primary tree earlier than anyone else and gain from the finisher (growth/great person). You get a free lvl 2 tenet as you hit modern, and are basically guaranteed to finish rationalism and get a lvl 3 tenet without having to pay attention to culture a lot.
For all civs in general playing for SV, I believe we should pay more attention to culture, because cutting down the turns in terms of science is quite easily within reach , but culture, or policies, are much harder to come by.
Happy holidays!
I want to thank all the users on this forum for providing such good feedback on our discussions and having some fun on the riddle game thread. Without your advice I'd probably still be shaking my fist at Alex for being such a douche.
For the civ deity tier list, I know a lot of people voted for Poland as the easiest civ to play on, and afterwards the civs that give science bonuses: Babylon, Korea, Maya, etc.
But strictly speaking, Poland's UA does not really fit into the category of a science bonus, but rather a culture bonus, because ultimately it "gives extra culture". But even for a science victory, Poland is very strong, here's why I think it's on par with Babylon/Korea
Looking at the science game, if you never bulb any scientists, then there is a total amount of beakers you have to put in, which roughly translates to a certain number of turns the average vanilla civ would need. Of course, you can sign a number of RAs that get boosted by Porcelain Tower, and that will speed up your tech. Also, most players would steal techs very strategically so that they get expensive techs and fill cheap techs while waiting for theft. But overall, the number of turns it takes to finish all the techs for SV is around 350 turns, if I were to venture a guess.
When taking into account scientist bulbing, each scientist bulb saves roughly 8 turns, because the most efficient way of bulbing is when tech rate has plateaued. On average, for a science game, it's possible to generate around 6-8 from slots, 2 from hubble, and 2-3 from faith(rationalism finisher). The total comes out to 10-13 scientists, or equivalent of 9*8=72 to 12*8=96.
Here's where Babylon is better than Korea, because under most circumstances certain specialist slots will not be worked, especially early on. The science bonus from specialists accumulated might be 22 slots(6 culture and 16 scientist slots from 4 cities) over an overestimated time of 200 turns. That comes out to 4400 beakers. Korea does have a boost equivalent to an RA when a science building is done in capital, but that only gives out roughly 4 RAs more, whereas Babylon can easily generate at least 4 more scientists.
However, Korea is recognized as one of the best civs due to its science oriented civ, and most other civs can achieve the tech requirements in time. Babylon does it much faster but it easily reaches the culture bottleneck. By that I mean in a standard game, playing for science ultimately comes down to primary tree tradition/liberty + rationalism + ideology. rationalism is good for other victory conditions especially on deity, but it's almost a requirement in SV because the late game scientists bought with faith can shorten your game by 16-24 turns. For ideologies you would also want to get a third level tenet, which all adds up to 6+6+6=18 policies taken, including openers and taking dibs on ideologies. All this means that you need to keep those city states, and you don't have many cultural wonders or culture from cities. But even so, in an article called "mathematics of civ" the author concludes that your city culture should be less than 7/3 of CS provided culture to make expansion worthwhile (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389702). My claim here is that you can cut down on the turns to finish in tech by generating as many great scientists and signing as many RAs as possible, but players will reach the culture bottleneck quite early. The tech requirements for a SV is relatively lower and more flexible than the cultural requirements, and most of the time playing for science usually results in not enough culture for many necessary policies because you neglected it or you "tech too fast". Another reason why Oracle and SoL/Kremlin/Prora are good, and WF is a good proposal.
This makes Siam somewhat more appealing, but most importantly it shows why Poland is so strong. You get free policies for going forward in tech, and since everyone needs to do it, there's nothing special one needs to adjust to in terms of gameplay. You don't get extra culture or anything like the CV oriented civs, but just outright policies, which in the late game are worth 1000+ culture. The timing is also incredibly good, since it's technically connected to your tech rate. You get free rationalism the moment you hit renaissance, and the two earlier bonuses can help you finish the primary tree earlier than anyone else and gain from the finisher (growth/great person). You get a free lvl 2 tenet as you hit modern, and are basically guaranteed to finish rationalism and get a lvl 3 tenet without having to pay attention to culture a lot.
For all civs in general playing for SV, I believe we should pay more attention to culture, because cutting down the turns in terms of science is quite easily within reach , but culture, or policies, are much harder to come by.
Happy holidays!