Rant on science and culture

Sessy

Prince
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Hey guys,

I want to thank all the users on this forum for providing such good feedback on our discussions and having some fun on the riddle game thread. Without your advice I'd probably still be shaking my fist at Alex for being such a douche.

For the civ deity tier list, I know a lot of people voted for Poland as the easiest civ to play on, and afterwards the civs that give science bonuses: Babylon, Korea, Maya, etc.
But strictly speaking, Poland's UA does not really fit into the category of a science bonus, but rather a culture bonus, because ultimately it "gives extra culture". But even for a science victory, Poland is very strong, here's why I think it's on par with Babylon/Korea

Looking at the science game, if you never bulb any scientists, then there is a total amount of beakers you have to put in, which roughly translates to a certain number of turns the average vanilla civ would need. Of course, you can sign a number of RAs that get boosted by Porcelain Tower, and that will speed up your tech. Also, most players would steal techs very strategically so that they get expensive techs and fill cheap techs while waiting for theft. But overall, the number of turns it takes to finish all the techs for SV is around 350 turns, if I were to venture a guess.

When taking into account scientist bulbing, each scientist bulb saves roughly 8 turns, because the most efficient way of bulbing is when tech rate has plateaued. On average, for a science game, it's possible to generate around 6-8 from slots, 2 from hubble, and 2-3 from faith(rationalism finisher). The total comes out to 10-13 scientists, or equivalent of 9*8=72 to 12*8=96.

Here's where Babylon is better than Korea, because under most circumstances certain specialist slots will not be worked, especially early on. The science bonus from specialists accumulated might be 22 slots(6 culture and 16 scientist slots from 4 cities) over an overestimated time of 200 turns. That comes out to 4400 beakers. Korea does have a boost equivalent to an RA when a science building is done in capital, but that only gives out roughly 4 RAs more, whereas Babylon can easily generate at least 4 more scientists.

However, Korea is recognized as one of the best civs due to its science oriented civ, and most other civs can achieve the tech requirements in time. Babylon does it much faster but it easily reaches the culture bottleneck. By that I mean in a standard game, playing for science ultimately comes down to primary tree tradition/liberty + rationalism + ideology. rationalism is good for other victory conditions especially on deity, but it's almost a requirement in SV because the late game scientists bought with faith can shorten your game by 16-24 turns. For ideologies you would also want to get a third level tenet, which all adds up to 6+6+6=18 policies taken, including openers and taking dibs on ideologies. All this means that you need to keep those city states, and you don't have many cultural wonders or culture from cities. But even so, in an article called "mathematics of civ" the author concludes that your city culture should be less than 7/3 of CS provided culture to make expansion worthwhile (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389702). My claim here is that you can cut down on the turns to finish in tech by generating as many great scientists and signing as many RAs as possible, but players will reach the culture bottleneck quite early. The tech requirements for a SV is relatively lower and more flexible than the cultural requirements, and most of the time playing for science usually results in not enough culture for many necessary policies because you neglected it or you "tech too fast". Another reason why Oracle and SoL/Kremlin/Prora are good, and WF is a good proposal.

This makes Siam somewhat more appealing, but most importantly it shows why Poland is so strong. You get free policies for going forward in tech, and since everyone needs to do it, there's nothing special one needs to adjust to in terms of gameplay. You don't get extra culture or anything like the CV oriented civs, but just outright policies, which in the late game are worth 1000+ culture. The timing is also incredibly good, since it's technically connected to your tech rate. You get free rationalism the moment you hit renaissance, and the two earlier bonuses can help you finish the primary tree earlier than anyone else and gain from the finisher (growth/great person). You get a free lvl 2 tenet as you hit modern, and are basically guaranteed to finish rationalism and get a lvl 3 tenet without having to pay attention to culture a lot.

For all civs in general playing for SV, I believe we should pay more attention to culture, because cutting down the turns in terms of science is quite easily within reach , but culture, or policies, are much harder to come by.

Happy holidays!
 
That's well written, and without nitpicking, your math serves as a general guide.

But I can simplify a bit: When playing for SV, focus on early culture. When playing for CV, focus on early science. When you are unsure….um….focus on both?

You need both, which was pretty much your point. And yes, Poland deserves to be top tier for ALL victory conditions (provided the mapmaker provides at least some equine opportunity).
 
This text supports pretty much my every Deity game and I probably couldn't have written it better myself.

Exhibit A: Babylon - I teched like mad, RAs all over the place, I ran away with the technology race as early as late Industrialism. However, being still new to BNW, the only social policies I cared about were Tradition and Rationalism. I didn't even get to lvl3 ideology by the time I was done. I was also forced to go Order becauce my culture output was minuscule.

Exhibit B: Iroquois - same as above, I ran away a bit later but I shaved off about 7 turns off my win time.

Exhibit C: Poland - went for culture, easily trounced everyone except India and seeing I wouldn't win soon, changed to Science. I had so much policies, I just bought every spaceship part and took over even though I was 3rd to get Apollo program
 
The only real condition is World Fair to be honest, the rest of necessary culture shouldn't be too hard to get. If you lose WF (or expect to) it might even be a good idea to push for Hermitage/archeologists while going for a SV just after schools.

Poland obviously makes your life easy for social policies, there's no arguing that.

Even though Babylon is considered faster for very fast wins, I think you underestimate Korea. Especially since your maths are inaccurate. First, a bulb is not 8 turns of your total science, it's 8 turns of your city science (which is your science without Rati opener or Scholasticism). So even if you assume you are at a plateau you will at best get, without Scholasticism, 8/1.1 = 7.2 turns of your current bpt.
Then the other mistake is that every +2 of Korea's bonus is increased by multipliers. The other misconception is that you assume someone to only work guilds and scientists. That is not how you play Korea. You work everything as soon as you get secularism or freedom (if city can still grow a minimum). Also you get some tech boosts for every science building in the capital and finally each of these +2 science will count toward GS bulbs (which is in no way negligeable). I'm fairly sure there is a breaking point where Korea beats Babylon in total science generated, and 300+ is probably already beyond that point.
 
First, a bulb is not 8 turns of your total science, it's 8 turns of your city science (which is your science without Rati opener or Scholasticism). \

I just learned something new. And here I thought I had soaked up most of the knowledge on these boards.

Acken, I won't claim that in an "optimal" game Inca can beat Korea or Babylon in SV, but they are close. The population advantage, money advantage, and ridiculously good defense advantage all make for faster building/buying of science buildings. Also, Terrace Farms make for much earlier specialist slot utilization.
 
Poland's free SP gives you zero defense against ideology pressure however...
dunno they used to have absolutely almost nothing going for them to help in the early game (a little better now thanks to how tradition has been reworked; you get the food and gold/happiness policies completed when it matters most) and I'd rank them around where the Celts are at (assuming Boudicca gets a forest and has an effective pantheon to go for).

I really doubt Babylon gets 3-4 more GS than Korea.
Assume National Epic (+25%), Garden (+25%), Rat policy (+25%), Ideology tenet for Order or Freedom (+25%), Science funding (+33%), throw in Pisa (+25%) and mid-to-end game Babylon's 50% is actually quite small since it stacks additionally with all those buffs.

(and all in all the # of GS in the game is highly variable but the BIGGEST factor is faith purchases; for example Maya is guaranteed at least one great prophet (and another one if you use GE on Hagia Sophia, so with a suitable pantheon and holy sites they can get more GS than Babylon in a game where Nebby has no faith income and very few faith CS for example easily; ~50 fpt (doable in some good starts over 200 turns is 10000 faith for example, a little over 4 GS's worth 1000+1500+2500+4000 =9000)

Taking into the account the snowballing effect I do think Babylon finishes slightly faster than Korea, all things being equal, however Korea is VERY MUCH better at culture victories thanks to the science from those culture slots/GP improvements and their better late-game science which allows them to fly over the rather useless late game tech tree)
 
I really doubt Babylon gets 3-4 more GS than Korea.

They definitely get three (one at writing and two from specialists), if you're getting four you've messed up somewhere because the game should be over already.

Assume National Epic (+25%), Garden (+25%), Rat policy (+25%), Ideology tenet for Order or Freedom (+25%), Science funding (+33%), throw in Pisa (+25%) and mid-to-end game Babylon's 50% is actually quite small since it stacks additionally with all those buffs.

All true, but now take account of the fact that Babylon will be five or ten turns quicker to education than Korea, and that the first GS (from the Oracle) will be further along than Koreas' would be.
 
Poland's free SP gives you zero defense against ideology pressure however...
dunno they used to have absolutely almost nothing going for them to help in the early game (a little better now thanks to how tradition has been reworked;

that is very wrong, because free SPs you get with Poland early on can help you get both Tradition and Liberty done before Renaissance, or at least get them close to done. It's even better if you rush Oracle
 
Even though Babylon is considered faster for very fast wins, I think you underestimate Korea. Especially since your maths are inaccurate. First, a bulb is not 8 turns of your total science, it's 8 turns of your city science (which is your science without Rati opener or Scholasticism). So even if you assume you are at a plateau you will at best get, without Scholasticism, 8/1.1 = 7.2 turns of your current bpt.
Then the other mistake is that every +2 of Korea's bonus is increased by multipliers. The other misconception is that you assume someone to only work guilds and scientists. That is not how you play Korea. You work everything as soon as you get secularism or freedom (if city can still grow a minimum). Also you get some tech boosts for every science building in the capital and finally each of these +2 science will count toward GS bulbs (which is in no way negligeable). I'm fairly sure there is a breaking point where Korea beats Babylon in total science generated, and 300+ is probably already beyond that point.

I do think Korea is incredibly strong, my first win on deity was with Sejong. We can basically agree that even for small 4 city tradition, the late game bulb from a scientist is roughly 8000 beakers? I'm not accounting for all the specialist slots is because early on even if I have factories, banks, workshops, markets, I would need to grow more, so I can probably only afford to use them as Korea if I can get sufficiently high in pop. For me that's around 70 turns max usage with full specialists.

Working all specialist slots will give 6-8 more specialist slots in each city providing 4 more science than other civs who don't employ those slots. In total that's more or less 30 science/city, or 120, or 240 after university+labs. It's definitely comparable in the long run if you can use all of them, but I don't feel the total beakers generated from that is more than 20k beakers.

My point is mainly that the tech requirements can be easily reached for SV, but not cultural requirements, so getting faster game times is not necessarily just better beaker rates but getting social policies at earlier turns.
 
Poland's free SP gives you zero defense against ideology pressure

that is very wrong, because free SPs you get with Poland early on can help you get both Tradition and Liberty done before Renaissance

People like to fill out both Tradition and Liberty with Poland, but keeping with the theme of this thread, wouldn’t it be stronger play to use their extra policies towards filling out aesthetics? The best defenses v. tourism and ideology pressure are culture and happiness -- so aesthetics and your ideology of choice. Won’t Poland have three completed trees (Tradition, Aesthetics, Rationalism) and closing on 2nd 3rd level ideology tenant by early 300s? With other civs (at diety) I can only afford Tradition + Rationalism + maybe one or two scattered SP, then all the rest are from my ideology (and I don’t as far as I would like with them). But I am really struggling at Deity.
 
I do think Korea is incredibly strong, my first win on deity was with Sejong. We can basically agree that even for small 4 city tradition, the late game bulb from a scientist is roughly 8000 beakers? I'm not accounting for all the specialist slots is because early on even if I have factories, banks, workshops, markets, I would need to grow more, so I can probably only afford to use them as Korea if I can get sufficiently high in pop. For me that's around 70 turns max usage with full specialists.

Working all specialist slots will give 6-8 more specialist slots in each city providing 4 more science than other civs who don't employ those slots. In total that's more or less 30 science/city, or 120, or 240 after university+labs. It's definitely comparable in the long run if you can use all of them, but I don't feel the total beakers generated from that is more than 20k beakers.

That's really not an analysis you can do like that in 3 lines. For example you account 240 more beakers on those 6-8 more specialist slots only. If you're going to compare it to babylon you have to still consider in the other normal scientists and guilds slots. If 20K beakers is what you are comparing it to, babylon's worth of 2.5 more GS that you previously mentioned.
And that number provided is without observatories, national college and rationalism opener. If I add obs + NC in cap I'm at a 200% bonus for one city. Just considering those 30 science per city that adds another 30 over the 240 for a total of 270. And then as suggested in your OP if you burn 10GS that means 8*10*270 worth of extra bulb science.

And that number is 21600, worth more than 2.5 Great scientist at 8K and the 20000 you want to compare it to.

And I haven't even factored in the extra science generated by the normal bpt for whatever turn numbers you spend with those extra +2 per specialists :crazyeye:

But the comparison used is flawed to begin with since other civs also work all slots before bulbing :)

My point is mainly that the tech requirements can be easily reached for SV, but not cultural requirements, so getting faster game times is not necessarily just better beaker rates but getting social policies at earlier turns.

Yes you need the culture and policies but if you manage to do that part right then it comes down to bpt. Also if we're going to compare Korea and Babylon, culture is rather irrelevant. However yes there is a discussion regarding Poland.

Also as a side note, deciding to work extra slots with Korea is a given after idelogy. Before that it depends only on the food you have in a city. A high food city (coastal for example) should without a single doubt work all its slots even prior to Freedom. The secret is a good balance with growth. If your city still grow at a reasonable rate, compounding 4 science every turn will be worth a lot more than the extra pop or 2 you'd manage to get after only many many turns.

I just learned something new. And here I thought I had soaked up most of the knowledge on these boards.

Acken, I won't claim that in an "optimal" game Inca can beat Korea or Babylon in SV, but they are close. The population advantage, money advantage, and ridiculously good defense advantage all make for faster building/buying of science buildings. Also, Terrace Farms make for much earlier specialist slot utilization.

Incans are very good civ but require very strong conditions(map) to catch up Korea and Babylon. That's why if you were to just try for a fast SV most people preffer the later two because it's easier to get a good Babylon map than a good Inca map. But in theory you are right.
 
People like to fill out both Tradition and Liberty with Poland, but keeping with the theme of this thread, wouldn’t it be stronger play to use their extra policies towards filling out aesthetics? The best defenses v. tourism and ideology pressure are culture and happiness -- so aesthetics and your ideology of choice. Won’t Poland have three completed trees (Tradition, Aesthetics, Rationalism) and closing on 2nd 3rd level ideology tenant by early 300s? With other civs (at diety) I can only afford Tradition + Rationalism + maybe one or two scattered SP, then all the rest are from my ideology (and I don’t as far as I would like with them). But I am really struggling at Deity.

You'd think that but no, not really. You see, Aesthetics is hardly worth finishing before you went down ideologies and got something big there. You need a lot of culture to fight the tourism pressure and Aesthetics by itself doesn't really help all *that* much. An early World Fair is a better option, as well as increased yield from Landmarks
 
....But strictly speaking, Poland's UA does not really fit into the category of a science bonus....
Poland is the only civ that can guarantee opening Rationalism the turn you enter the Renaissance era. For me one of the pivotal points is when you unlock 'Secularism', the earlier the better. This can shave of many turns to building Alhambra, or do you need Notre Dame for instance.
 
Poland is the only civ that can guarantee opening Rationalism the turn you enter the Renaissance era. For me one of the pivotal points is when you unlock 'Secularism', the earlier the better. This can shave of many turns to building Alhambra, or do you need Notre Dame for instance.

while I agree that opening rationalism and taking policies in it are quite important, most other civs won't be off by too much if you can calculate the policies well enough.

Also, by entering the renaissance, you would most likely already have access to chivalry or physics. I've never built alhambra or notre dame, unfortunately, so I can't give much of an opinion.
 
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