New SG!!! Regent? Emperor?

Haven't actuall played but ...

As you said, Vilcas, Vitcos, and Olly are all city size. If we assume they'll be defending with pikeman we should expect some moderate losses. The only way I see to counteract that is with 4-6 trebs PER CITY. that translates to 12 -16 trbs. We would also need what, 4-5 MI per city as well.

From a quick look at the save I see that we have 19 MI and 5 swords. If we go after those three cities, plus possibly tiwanaku and Arequipa, depending on successes, I would think 30 units in three stack of ten would suffice, attacking the three large first and simultaneously, and moving on to the other two. I hesitate to build the trebs because of the number we would need. No not just because i want to see some Inca blood (but I do) but more because you have to assume that they will get muskets soon. they already have invention.

BTW -- vilcambaba, the city the stole one of our dyes, is currently undefended. will send a JT or something there.

So, if I follow this plan, how many units do you think we will be facing when we move on to the two other cities? Do you see any major flaws?

I also did some quick math and if we get no more culture buildings (other than Sistine's), we'll total out around 17,500 culture. A couple more wonders and improvements, and it should be smooth sailing. :)

I know it's starting to get later, but I'll wait a while, or maybe till tomorrow to play.
 
With Chivalry, IMO, he's building knights. We can outproduce him with more MI's, the trick being as we advance across open ground, we're faced with 4-2 battles if his knights hit our MI SOD, so we stand to get attritted down somewhat. City defense will be I'm thinking 3 pike/musket w/ 1 longbow or treb. Question then is if you go that far, what do you do with the 2 captured cities? Fair chance they'll flip. We can try it w/o trebs, but of course then it's 4-3 or 4-4 w/dug-in bonus+size 12 against at full HP strength. Those kind of slugging matches can often come down to that last defender HP.
 
So I guess you're saying that you think we should build some trebs. I'm ok w/ that but it'll take a while longer.

I didn't get a chance to play last night, will post save/log tonight.

BTW -- from reading the patch threads, it seems a lot of people are unhappy with the new patch. Maybe being in the middle of the game is gonna be a blessing in disguise ....
 
Good plan SesnofWthr, however I was curious. We know that they have Invention, but do they have Saltpeter in their borders? If they do not, you may not need as many trebs.
 
Hmmmm ... good point, Pindicator. No, we don't know for sure if they have saltpeter, mainly because we don't have the tech for it yet. if I had to guess, I would say that Tiwanaku or Vitcos (or whichever those desert cities are) probably do, especially the way they settled exactly were we had a city previously. This will be something to keep an eye on though.
 
Pre-flight – Excluding chivalry, we’re up at least theology on everyone. Also military superiority. However, our military is currently costing us 72 gpt, really gonna put a crimp in our research when I build even more units. There are wines and ivory available, from US and Bismark respectively, but we don’t have anything to trade, yet. I will try to build mostly military during these ten.

Does anyone else appreciate the irony of “Hurry Hard” being in the desert?

IBT – chivalry to gunpowder in six at + 9gpt. I know we want Free Artistry, but Sistine’s will take 9 more anyhow. Talk to Lincoln, he’d love to get us drunk and give us 13 gold if we show him how to ride the horsies better. I see no harm, so done.

550 ad – (1) – Laz temple -> treb. Greeks, Aztecs and Germans all start Knights Templar. Some guy Toynbee says we are the most powerful, I say I know, but who are you? Change Tikal to Knights Templar in 12. start shuffling the troops around.

IBT – Pachawhatever dares to demand Theology from us? I have a good mind to smite him down. He can live for now, but he gets nothing!

560 ad – (2) – Tulum barracks -> pike. Our people really like us, so I let them put a new wing on the palace. Workers connect our second dyes, but no one has anything we want.

570 ad – (3) – Yax lib -> treb. For the first time in history, our navy moves into Aztec waters.

580 ad – (4) – LV lib -> treb. I watch the guys all run around some.

590 ad – (5) – Quir temple -> treb. The people of Atzcapalco decide that they would rather be called mayans, also say something about liking curling. :hmm: Start a settler there. I intend to move it one S and one SE from there.

600 ad – (6) – Yax treb -> treb. Bon lib -> pike. Drop sci to 30%, still in 1 get 126 gold.

610 ad – (7) – Gunpowder discovered. Start Music theory next. 6 turns at +60 gpt. Copan market ->musket. Yes we already have some hooked up near Copan, go us! LV treb -> musket. I feel a few muskets could probably halve any losses vs. knights. Lose our furs. Other than techs, we have nothing to trade to get them back. Don’t want to trade away theology yet. Can see saltpeter in German Territory, also in Iroquois. Although there are a couple of desert spaces we can’t see, it appears the Inca have none.

620 ad – (8) – Yax treb -> treb. Every two turns in this town, a veritable factory. Lagar into disorder, dammit! I hate when I miss those. Inca building Sistine, good luck. :p

630 ad – (9) – Laz treb -> MI. Aztecs no building sistines we have it in 1. Time to trade Theo around for whatever I can get. Bismarck gives ivory and 6 gold. Iroquois offer 4 gold and a worker, a bit light, but they’re going nowhere fast. I guess that’s it, might have waited a turn or so too much, or we might have got furs too. :wallbash:

640 ad – (10) – Ci has Sistine -> market (might be good to finish this). (might be good to finish this). Yax treb -> treb. Bon pike -> treb. Quir treb -> musket. Cal temple -> lib (up for debate). The people believe I am such a wise and benevolent ruler, they put a second wing on the palace.

The trebs en route are mostly headed for the stack south of Vitcos. Two are headed towards Olly. Small stacks ready near Olly and Vilcas. Inca are gonna be in rough shape once we start whooping their ass. Aztecs, Greek, US, and Iroquois all small and non-players. Only unknown are germans. We are still up educ and gunpowder on everyone, IIRC. I might suggest 2-3 muskets per stack, for defense of stack, and then cities once captured.

I believe I now pass the torch to Pindicator. Kill, Kill, Kill!! :evil:

The Inca's Demise

A screenie of the Aztec/Greek area:
 
Got It

...but probably won't be able to play tonight. If not, then I'll play after work late, late Friday night (more like early, early Saturday morning).
 
I should probably be in bed, but oh well... I'll play my turns now so you guys don't have to wait two days for me. I don't know how much war I'll be able to get on, maybe just the beginning, because I don't have much defense for the troops and despite our big military it is pretty thin once you get behind the front lines. Also, have we been thinking where we are going to want the FP at? Two possibilities I see right now: Take a chunk of Inca, and put it up there.... or take over Azteca and Greece later on, and put it down there (some nice lands, by the looks of it). I'm more leaning towards Inca, as there's just more room up there.

Pre-Turn) Move elite swordsmen near Bonampak into town and upgrade it for 30g. Upgrade swordsmen in Quiriguá as well, since we have a good amount in our treasury.

IBT: Atzcapotzalco Settler -> Musket

1)Workers do their thing.
Hurry Temple in Hurry Hard for 168g. We need to get more units in this city to prevent the possibility of a flip. Doesn't matter how cheap the unit is.
We have a lot of automated units. Many people consider that a :nono:
Settler heads towards battle lines.

IBT: Inca's cultural borders expand and he calls us for our troops being in his town. I back down... for now.
Yaxchilán: Tre -> Musket
Las Vegas: Musket -> Knight.
Cuello: Barracks -> Musket.
Tulum: Pikemen -> Musket.
Hurry Hard: Temple -> Musket.

2)Upgrade Cat at Yaxchilan to Tre.
Settler continues.
More units move into place.

IBT: Greece wants to trade Dyes for 3gpt. As if.
Music Theory comes in. Start research on Astronomy, due in 7.
Copan: Musket -> Musket. This city does need a library tho.
Tikal builds Knight's Templar Begins building Musket.
Bonampak: Tre -> MI.
Germany complete's Sun Tzu's in Berlin.
Germans, Aztecs, and Greeks are building Leo's.

3)More preparation.
That's all for now; friends need a ride from the bars and I'm getting sleepy as is. Tomorrow night late I'll finish up.
 
Just an observation in the south. When we pull the trigger, at some point if we don't bring the Aztecs in on our side (don't see that we should need to) the Incas might bring them on theirs. Then it's a 2 front war. We should just be prepared to deal with that contingency. Maybe add walls to Tula since it's a lux town, and isn't in a position to grow to size 6. Walls also for Tulum would be a good thing.
 
A couple quick notes, Pind:

1. The units are not really automated, they may be on "go to" orders, especially military units.

2. In case you didn't catch it in my turns, the settler was going to build a city 1 S and 1 SE of atzcapulco, as this would give it and LV much better space.

3. Can we trade the Aztecs dyes or something to keep them out of everything?
 
IBT, after turn 3
Lagartero: Market -> Library
Lazapa: MI -> Musket
Aztecs, Inca, and Greek are building Leos.

4)
Moving more units towards Incan fronts. Still don't have enough Muskets to get it done on defense; also am trying to get workers to finish up their jobs up north and move farther south for the beginning of the war.
Furs + 10g (all) from Greece for Iron. Greece goes to Polite. It may be good to keep in mind that Greece does not have their own supply of iron.
Also, once we discover Astronomy, we will have a trade route to Korea to trade for Silks. (Or do we have to tech them up to Astronomy first? If so, it can wait.)
Settler on the way to the location SesnofWthr intended.

IBT
Korea tells our Galley to beat it.
Chichén Itza: Market -> J.S. Bach's.

5)
Change Bonampak from MI to Longbowman.

IBT
Inca tells us to beat it again.
Yaxchilán: Musket -> Musket.
Las Vegas: Knight -> Knight.
In a display of their leader's prowess, the worshiping citizens plant trees in front of the palace.

6) ..zzz..

IBT Bonampak: Longbowman -> Longbowman.
Andahuaylas: Barracks -> Musket.

7) We still don't have many muskets near the front lines, and probably won't for a while to come. I'm going to pull the trigger next turn. I believe we'll be fine.

IBT
Our first Templar appears at Tikal
Tikal: Musket -> Knight
Athens builds Leonardo's Workshop; Wonder cascade ends.

8)
Settler founds Dzibilchaltun SSE of Atzcapotzalco. Begins production on Library.
Aztecs will not take a MPP against Inca for anything... Will risk Inca bringing them in against me. If they do, I will MPP Greece against Azteca.

Declare War against Inca!

Attack Group Vilcabamba:
Horseman captures Inca worker; move slave out of Inca territory.
Advance force of 2 MIs, 1 Javelin Thrower, and 1 Musket SW of Vilcabamba. Best defender in Vilca is a regular Spear.
Attack Group Ollantaytambo:
6 MIs and 3 Trebs move SW of Ollantaytambo. Best defender is a reg Pike.
Attack Group Victos:
Knight captures Inca worker on the wheat tile SSE of Victos. 7 MIs, 1 Longbow, and 3 Trebs join Knight on the tile. Will take the "long" route to Victos to avoid attacking across a river.
Attack Group Vilcas:
6 MIs (1 Elite), 1 Musket, and 3 Trebs move to tile SSE of Vilcas.

IBT
Inca shows virtually no armed forces! Only a MI and a Sword appear near Ollantaytambo. However, a musket is built in Ollantaytambo.
Quiriguá: Musket -> Musket.
The people deem my war just and build the palace to unheard of heights.

9)
Attack Group Vilcabamba:
MI attacks fort reg Spear in Vilcabamba: wins flawlessly.
MI attacks fort reg Spear in Vilcabamba: wins, -1 HP.
Jav Thrower attacks reg Longbow in Vilcabamba: wins, -2HP, promotes to vet, and we get a slave.
Vilcabamba captured. 3 resistors, production set to Musket.
Musket and Horsemen move north towards Cuello.
Upgrade Horsemen in Calakmul to Knight for 120g.
Attack Group Victos:
Group moves SE of Victos. A vet Musket (unfortified; must have just been made) is the best defender. Will seige this city much before I attack.
Attack Group Vilcas:
Group moves SE of Vilcas. Best defender is a fortified reg Pike.
Attack Group Ollantaytambo
Trebs go 3 for 3, damaging the musket twice, and a pikeman. At least 2 Pikes and Musket for defense in Ollan. Will continue to seige.
vet MI attacks Inca vet MI: wins, -2HP

IBT
Inca reg Archer attacks our injured MI: MI wins, loses 1HP, promotes to Elite.
Inca reg Sword attacks same MI: MI loses, -1HP to Sword.
Barbarian Galleys attack our Galley north of Inca-land. We win both, -1 HP, promote to vet.
Astronomy discovered, research set to Banking, due in 6.
Copán: Musket -> Library.
Yaxhilán: Musket -> Musket.
Las Vegas: Knight -> Knight.
Attrition: Aqueduct -> Courthouse.
We lost our wines deal. I'll let the next person renegotiate that one.

10)
Attack Group Ollantaytambo:
Trebs go 1/3, damage the musket. I need some citizens killed... not this damage to troops. :(
MI attacks Sword: wins, -2HP.
Musket joins main attack group.
Attack Group Victos:
Trebs go 1/3, damage to musket... I will wait for the 5/3 crusader before I attack Victos; hopefully the trebs can do some damage by then.
Crusader and Musket move to tile south of Victos. Have them join the main force before any attack, so we are not attacking across the river.
Attack Group Vilcas:
Trebs go 2/3, each damaging a pike once. Will attack here.
4/4 MI attacks fort 2/3 pike: wins, -2HP.
4/4 MI attacks fort 2/3 pike: wins flawlessly
Vilcas Captured! 3 resistors, set production to Temple. 1 slave captured. 2 MIs and Musket garrison Vilcas. Rest of the attack group should go to Victos.
Upgrade horseman in Cuello to Knight.


Take it to the Inca!
 
Nice turns Pind. I t can be amazing how effective units can be when used in the right sequence. Just want to note that they obviously have gunpowder. Must be in the desert east of cuzco, as they have no active trades. Speaking of trades, we are now connected with Korea. Didn't see what they wanted for trade. As a note, I originally meant to disband Atzcapulco through worker builds, because that would have given more of the "builder " type of spacing we've been using so far. However, if it can support itself maybe it's worth keeping. I'm sure M60 will have no problem figuring it all out.
 
My thoughts on the game at this point:

Groups attacking Ollantaytambo and Victos should be able to take their cities. Keep bombarding with the Trebs, and once you get a turn with 2 hits (enough to get the pikes up for defense) attack with MI. The western most attack group (Vilcas? Can't remember) should keep moving up the west coast, taking the next Incan town (begins with an 'A', I'm not good with names :p )

After Groups Ollan and Victos take their towns, they need to converge on the next Incan town north of them. (I lost my screenshots, and I'm becoming disappointed with the program I picked up... Does anyone know a good freeware paint program? Just something basic that supports file types I can post with?)

Next the three armies can converge on the Incan capital. This should break their back, so to speak, and I believe we can do it with what we have, although the sooner we do it the less losses we'll take due to Musket defenders.
 
Quick note, I didn't see the comments before starting. In terms of overall strategy, I think we're all comfortable with the general direction. On to the game.

Smoke-Jaguar is most pleased that the initial stage of our Incan enterprise has fared so well. He hopes to bring even greater glory to the Mayan civilization in the coming turns. Such a splendid force that has been created is unmatched on the planet. He will take utmost care to preserve it, and lead it to ultimate victory. That said…

Preturn. Vilcas has 3 resisters. Won’t be a problem for future Incan cities, I don’t anticipate having resisters as I won’t be capturing any cities. I only desire Incan carnage.
Cuello change musket to settler. Vilcas cannot be razed, inasmuch as it was captured by our previous great leader. I will settle for starvation. Don’t want it flipping, thereby leaving our strike force deep behind enemy lines. Change Vilcas queue temple->worker, and add mucho entertainment. At least they’ll die happy.

IBT- 2 Incan knights appear from Tiwanaku to assist Ollantaytambo.

Turn 1. Bonampak longbow ->settler, Lazapa musket->knight, Cuello settler->musket. Add second floor to West Wing of palace.

The Battle of Ollantaytambo. 2 muskets appear defending, reg and vet. Fire trebs. Here goes the attack: MI-1 killed. No effect. MI-2 killed, Vet musket redlined, a pike appears in defense stack. MI-3 kills pike, down to 2hp. MI-4 loses 1hp, kills redlined musket. Knight kills reg musket, losing 1hp. Bring the torches. 1gold, 6 workers, Ollantaytambo destroyed. The 6 workers build a road on the razed tile, and add 2 defenders with them hoping to survive the I-knight counterattack I know is coming.

The Battle of Vitcos. 1 vet musket defender seen. Fire trebs, revealing another reg pike. Musket defender lose 2 hp. The troops rush in. MI-1 redlined, kills pike. Another reg pike revealed. MI-2 loses hp, kills pike. Knight redlines vs musket w/o effect. MI-3 loses 2hp, defeats musket. Vitcos suffers the same fate as Olla. 2 gold, 5 workers.

IBT- I-Knight attacks our worker stack to bring the boys back home. Kills our knight. 2nd I-knight attacks our musket. The RNG gods do not smile favorably upon us, as we lose this round as well, and the 6 workers. They race back to the imagined safety of Tiwanaku. I-knight tries a raid on Vilcas, kills a defender, but redlines.

Turn 2. I bring up a settler vicinity of former Olla. Uxmal founded. Time to hit back. Elite MI kills redlined I-knight at Vilcas. Now vicinity of Uxmal: Knight kills longbow, no loss. Knight vs I-knight, we lose, he redlines, then promotes. Tikal needs an entertainer.

IBT- He loses 2 knights attacking our knight in the jungle vic Uxmal. We promote. Lagartero library->knight. Piedras Negras harbor->temple. Calakmul goes disorder. Ugh, just once, I’d like to play 10 w/o that happening. Need that smiley badges add-on.

Turn 3. Calakmul gets entertainer. Tikal produces crusader. Not much this round, waiting for my settlers to come up. The usual worker duties.

IBT- We’ve got company coming in from the east. 4 archers and 2 swords. Must have been an Incan excursion in Otto’s lands. No matter, we’re ready to deal.

Turn 4. Tikal knight->knight. Bonampak settler->musket. Calakmul library->market. Vegas knight->knight. Check in with our embassies abroad. Oops, dialed a wrong number, got Pikachu on the line. Yeah, I’ll BET you want peace. Not on my watch.

IBT- 2 knights hit our SOD approaching Tiwanaku. We lose crusader and musketman, but they are hurt, and withdraw into the city. We are undeterred.

Turn 5. Yax musket->musket. Time to deal with the Incan Task Force East. Fire trebs. 3 archers lose a hp. MI-1 kills archer, loses hp. MI-2 kills archer, no damage. Vet knight kills chasqui scout . Science to 30%, banking still in 1.

IBT- Nothing big. What’s left of ITFE doing some last bit of maneuvering. Sure, like 2 swords are going to kill a couple entrenched muskets.

Turn 6. Banking->economics in 5 @ -24 gpt. Tulum musket ->walls. The SOD has reached Tiwanaku. Fire trebs. 1 hp each on 2 pikes and a knight. L/bow-1kills 2 hp pike, no damage, promotes. L/bow-2 redline, kills pike, promotes. MI-1 kills 2 hp knight, loses a hp. MI-2 loses a hp, kills elite 2hp I-knight, and good night Tiwanaku. The mass surrender of 8 workers begins. Hey, I’ve seen you all somewhere, I never forget a face. They won’t be re-captured again, you can be sure. Next target: Machu Pichu. Back east, more severe beatings as they’re caught in a crossfire between Cuello and Uxmal. MI kills their archer. Elite knight kills archer. Vet musket kills 1hp archer. Vet knight kills reg sword, down 2 hp. Vet MI kills reg sword. ITFE has been eradicated. Change Bonampak musket->settler, Tikal knight->settler, Cuello musket->settler. Fair chunk of prime real estate now available. Time for mini-Inchon. Galley drops 2 MI in mountains tile north of Arequipa. This may or may not work, but so close to the capital, the response will gauge what’s left in his tank.

IBT- I-knight kills mini-Inchon MI-1. Still have 1 remaining, but no further attack, that was it. So we know he’s in serious trouble.

Turn 7. Victory or death for mini-Inchon MI-2, attacks Arequipa. He chooses death. So it goes sometimes in war. Mayapan founded, starts temple.

IBT- Longbow kills vet MI vic Vitcos, redlines.

Turn 8. Bonampak settler->musket, Quigera musket->market, Lazapa knight->market, Vegas knight->bank, Cuello settler-> temple. Knight kills redlined longbow. Enroute to Machu Pichu, MI kills I-knight, but redlined.

IBT- L/bow kills vet knight.

Turn 9. Vilcas MI defeats redlined l/bow. SOD now adjacent to Machu Pichu.

IBT- Nothing. An eerie silence falls over the battlefield. One final blow to deliver.

Turn 10. Yax musket->Copernicus. Hurry Hard musket->library.

The Battle of Machu Pichu: Fire trebs, redlines a musket. Regular SPEAR loses HP. Stick a fork in him, he’s done. L/bow kills spear, loses hp. MI kills spear. Knight kills musket. Machu Pichu incinerated. 5 workers. Ake founded. Trade Korea Republic and dyes for silks. Science to 50%, econ still in 1. Bachs in 11 at CI. I now relinquish command of our mighty army.

Post assessment: Not much left to tell. I didn’t make peace in the event some want to continue the war. I didn’t even bothering pillaging the saltpeter, figuring it takes him longer to build muskets than pikes, so next one can make the call on that. Enjoy!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Smoke-Jaguar_of_the_Maya,_840_AD.SAV
 
Well done, M60. Nice set of turns there. If I would have guessed Vitcos or Ollan to fall so easily I would have done it for you. But then again, I would have taken the quicker (and riskier) route of taking the city, not razing. But we're empire building here, and I can appreciate a the superiority of Mayan citizens to Incan ones.

As far as peace goes... well, that's entirely on our terms now. I would think that we will want to take Inca for all its worth to get peace only when we find we can't grab the open lands that razing gets us. Or when our armies get too injured to go further.

Anyway, there's nothing saying we can't take a 20-turn hiatus to rebuild forces. Or even to take the Aztecs out of the picture. All depends on how we want to do things. We are too much in control to lose this one.
 
The latest image from the battlefield. Consider going another 10, then make peace for the Incan city of Juli which is off-map somewhere. I presume it’s a small place somewhere near Otto’s lands. In 10 turns, a combination of Vilcas and Mayapan units could take Arequipa. SOD Center drives on Huamanga, and Group Uxmal can take Nasca. We have a couple settlers in the musket stack tile sw of Ake. There is a fur by what was Machu Pichu, so we want to hurry one of the settlers there. Peace for 20, then on 21 finish him off, with all Incan cities readily defeated in a final 10 turn set.
 
Nice set M60. It looks like we have the situation well in hand. After Bach's our culture would finish over 19k. A cathedral would put us over the top. After that we're basically just trying to kill time. The only military action that could really threaten us would be a dogpile/multi-front war. I doubt if any of us would really want to just play our turns out, so I would prefer to keep killing people off. We'll just have to keep a wary eye on the domination limit. if we do make a 20 turn peace, I would suggest pillaging their saltpeter first as that will slow them another 5-10 turns. We could also have cavs by the end of that 20 turns if we wanted to.
 
I'm pretty sure I'm next so : Got it. Might not be able to play Monday night since I need to watch UConn beat Georgia Tech.
 
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