ALC Game 16 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Cyrus

Hey guys. I guess this is my first post. However I'v been reading here for a couple months.

I recently played a few games as Cyrus. First the Immortals withdraw is only 10% in warlords. This means the flanking promotions aren't realy as good. I would recomend using mostly combat I + II.
I agree that stonehenge should be a key wonder and is a huge boost to warmongerers. Your citys dont need monuments and as well captured citys have instant culture so you can focus on rebuilding sooner, Granary/courthouses etc.

As far as Imperialistic goes I think it's actualy alot better then you give it credit for, as far as Cyrus goes anyway. You should be able to take out 1 or if your fast 2 civs with immortals before you'll need cats (keeping the citys). I found that I usualy only build 3-4 citys before attacking. They only have 3-4 citys. This means after the war you have a very spread out empire, few citys lost of room inbetween.
Your early citys should of been focused on max production for the war so this transfers very well with the settler production bonus. In my most recent game i took out my nabour Hannible leaving me with 7 citys total (i built 3). With such production + bonus I could build settlers in 4-5 turns. I then spred my exes immortals to city sites and pumped out settlers expands my empire to 13 citys in i dono maybe 15-20 turns.

The power is in the abuility to fill in land with settlers very quickly. An idea im gonna try next game is to after taking out one enemy keep the immortals on the war path. Instead of capturing just raise any citys I can around me which should leave me with even more room to expand (although few allies :))

Cyrus dosent have much in the way of economic boost, so like the real persians the key is to grab a massive empire early.

One last thing. For a charasmatic leader I usualy settle 1-2 GG for the +2 exp. with Baracks+stable +civic+gg you can get +9 exp Knights/Cav. This puts you into the third promotion for Cha. leaders.
 
Re: Stongehenge - I've been saying it over the aelf's current challenge with Churchill, but the happiness boost from Monuments dissapears after Calendar if they are via Stonehenge. If the monument is built individually it remains. If there are a lot of happy calendar resources around, it's not such a big deal, but if happiness is in short supply then keeping the monuments around is more valuable - at that stage you'd be happy to pay 45 hammers for 1 happiness.

I'm interested to see how these two challenges play out - both Cyrus and Churchill are charismatic and don't have anything going for them economically besides the +1 happy face. That really leaves managing the economy up to the skill of the player (and the map he's given).

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Re: Specialists. It could be a game that sees a repeat of the GM economy, and conquest is not a bad option to consider. With no economic traits and a UB that doesn't help much in that regard, a lot of cities should be razed any only choice spots taken. Keeping a mounted army means you will be able to move from battlefield to battlefield fairly easily.

Look to grab the most profitable cities by settling them with Imperialistic's cheaper settlers or by capturing them. That means precious metals and large rivers are big targets. Much like with Egypt there is a danger of building a ton of units and suffering from troop unkeep and city maintenance costs. Don't be afraid to raze and come back later.

If the empire does get stretched thin with a few cities, far apart, with lots of fog, then the Great Wall starts to look attractive.
Good info on Stonehenge versus monuments for a permanent or temporary happy. I say we see what the map offers us before making a final decision.

As for your last comment on the GW, the problem is that by then the GW has usually been built.
 
When playing Cyrus don't even think about founding more than two cities! Just go AH-wheel-pottery-writing-alpha-whatever and spam immortals. In my opinion you should aim to annihilate everyone on your continent, if you have Alex or Shaka (or both?) nearby kill them first. Don't sign peace before alphabet, leave AI one city and demand a tech. You have plenty of time until longbows arrive, use it wisely.

You may wonder "what, kill everyone, then it's isolated start again???". Nop, make sure you have at least one, or two or even three GP farms running scientists. (Food heavy AI capitals are best for that purpose.) You are almost guaranteed to win liberalism race, if you manage to get 4 GS in time (philo, paper, 2 for edu), which means only two per GP farm. Running caste system or pacifism is the key, you can have 6 GS easily with GL/CS/Pacifism (or slow enough when recovering from wars). Use those for academy or lightbulb liberalism itself (get compass, avoid machinery). Cottagespam everything else except those two GP farms and you should be fine. Backfill when other continent finds you, trade for optics first and meet everyone before heavy trading.
 
Not much more advice to be given here. A quick AH and hookup of horses (wherever they are) are a no-brainer. Barbs are a non-issue then as well as the first non-protective/hill fortified capital of your neighbour.

Try to eliminate the first neighbour and depending on the number of neighbours!!!! so that you can still tech-trade, kill another one.

Then use your highly promoted mounted units for a mopup round with Cavalry or Knights.:)

I disagree with the need for stonehenge. Playing several games now without it, I found whipping monuments way faster and more productive then wasting time on Stonehenge.

As you are going with an early war, Stonehenge is a big NO-NO. Better a barracks and 3 more units, I say. Enemy capitals can be whipped for monuments!
 
Shaka and Alexander are two early neighbors we don't really want to see, but unless some catastrophe happens even they aren't too bad - typically there is only one source of metal, if any, at that point in the game, so it becomes the primary target during a war.
You sort of answered your own problem here - only one source of metal makes the empire very vulnerable, especially as Immortals should be used in the same throwaway manner as War Chariots. The RNG has to be particularly cruel for you to lose more than two to a spearman (provided they come from a barracks...phalanx on a hill is rather more painful). Remember, assuming you've got access to horses there's absolutely no reason to build any units other than immortals until you reach construction...their speed and cheap disposability renders everything else obsolete.

On a few sundry other points:
  1. Don't knock the +2 health from the apothecary. It can be pretty useful if the game reaches the factory/coal plant stage once cities are large and developed. Health is invariably more of a problem in the late game than happiness, especially if you're charismatic.
  2. Early wonders are a waste of hammers. Given the bonus immortals get against archers, there's no city in the world you can't capture in an early rush, and since stonehenge is close to 4 immortals, I know which I'd choose (provided there's a well-placed neighbour).
  3. Heffling answered the Great Wall point - the idea is to attack rather than defend. Even defending newly conquered cities, that's land you're not culturally dominant in so I don't think (that's think rather than know) it counts towards the GW bonus - I'm pretty sure it counts as fighting abroad for WW purposes anyway.
  4. The bonus to GG appearance might not sound like much, but in reality you'll get at least 1 for every war you fight (the number of conflicts goes up as the game progresses) which is definitely not to be sniffed at. Using the first for a medic 3 immortal will last you the game. My favourite tactic is to settle a couple in my HE city and then build WP in another strong production city for two veteran military pumps later in the game regardless of civics. This also saves you that annoying lag while your HE city is devoted to WP construction.
  5. Speaking of late game veterans, consider a fairly focused beeline to grab military tradition with liberalism. Either the artist from music, or an accidental NE artist in your scientist farm can help with Nationalism so it's very doable on Monarch (rival capitals tend to make great GP farms)...then sell old techs or run the slider at 0% to upgrade swarms of veteran cavalry and slaughter the feeble longbows/muskets in your path.
In terms of tech, AH first, followed by either mining or the wheel is a no-brainer, with horses (assuming they're available grabbed with the capital or city 2). If horses are in the start location, city 2 should ideally prioritise food and hills in the first ring to get pumping immortals ASAP. When it comes to war, head directly for the enemy capital and then pick off the outlying cities. This tends to be more expensive initially, but costs you fewer units overall, plus it's slightly quicker as their other cities are likely to be closer to yours for quick access by reinforcements.
 
I just wanted to point out that you mentioned being Expansive in the OP but you are not.

The real point I wanted to make was about the possibility of going for the Great Wall if there is stone around. I think that would be a waste of hammers since:

1) You have THE anti-barb UU as you said.

2) You already are getting a GG bonus and I think that it's a bit of a waste to try to generate even more.

3) Are you really going to be fighting a defensive war?

The only reason to get the GW would be for the eventual GE to grab the GL or another mid-game wonder.

In any event I think that Cyrus should see the return of the high scoring domination win for Sisiutil. Good Luck
 
[*]Early wonders are a waste of hammers. Given the bonus immortals get against archers, there's no city in the world you can't capture in an early rush, and since stonehenge is close to 4 immortals, I know which I'd choose (provided there's a well-placed neighbour).
[*]Heffling answered the Great Wall point - the idea is to attack rather than defend. Even defending newly conquered cities, that's land you're not culturally dominant in so I don't think (that's think rather than know) it counts towards the GW bonus - I'm pretty sure it counts as fighting abroad for WW purposes anyway.

Indeed, stay away from early wonders. in ALC 15 the Oracle was a killer, do not make the same mistake again.
 
Re: Stongehenge - I've been saying it over the aelf's current challenge with Churchill, but the happiness boost from Monuments dissapears after Calendar if they are via Stonehenge. If the monument is built individually it remains.

I don't think this is true. In my games with Charismatic leaders I'm pretty sure that the :) from Monuments disappears with Calendar regardless if they're built directly or come from Stonehenge.
 
I don't think this is true. In my games with Charismatic leaders I'm pretty sure that the :) from Monuments disappears with Calendar regardless if they're built directly or come from Stonehenge.

I think you're right. In fact, I had started writing a reply on that topic and I aborted it, because I haven't actually played in a long time, but I know I did some research on this when Warlords came out, and I concluded that the happiness benefit expires. The monument itself remains, and it continues to generate culture, but you don't get a happy face. Maybe that changed in a patch?
 
Re: Stongehenge - I've been saying it over the aelf's current challenge with Churchill, but the happiness boost from Monuments dissapears after Calendar if they are via Stonehenge. If the monument is built individually it remains. If there are a lot of happy calendar resources around, it's not such a big deal, but if happiness is in short supply then keeping the monuments around is more valuable - at that stage you'd be happy to pay 45 hammers for 1 happiness.

I am currently playing a game with Cyrus where I did not build Stonehenge. The Monuments I had built did no longer give happiness after I researched Calendar.

Regarding Charismatic's happiness bonus to Monuments, it doesn't matter if you build Stonehenge or not - the bonus disappears the moment you obtain Calendar in either case.

With that being said, Immortals rock! In my game (Prince, Pangaea, Epic, Standard) I started close to Bizmark and Mansa Musa. Neither of them had Copper. Needless to say, they didn't live very long ;) In terms of military units, there was no reason for me to build anything but Immortals until barb swordsmen started showing up.

EDIT: While I was typing, two other people beat me to it! :lol:
 
Indeed, stay away from early wonders. in ALC 15 the Oracle was a killer, do not make the same mistake again.

The only reason the Oracle killed him is because of the barbs, if he an handle the Barbs then the Oracle will be quite the advantage especially a COL SS, for those early Courthouse after your first war where you want to cut ddown that maintenance cost.

Definitely Ignore SH, Unless you're lucky enough to get Stone within your Capital's Fat cross, apart from that, focus your hammers on military production.

Remember Immortals are fast units, 2 move means they can quickly conquer a Civ in almost the half the normal time. It also means, Reasonably far away Civs are possible targets too, as you're able to rush them quicker with your fast UU compared to an Axe rush.

AH as first tech is a no brainer, with both Arg and Hunting it's cheapened even further so you'll be able to research it a lot faster.

Remember Charismatic Civs only require 13XP for level 5 units (4 Promotions!) so in the Middle and Gunpowder Ages it's possible to get level 5 Knights/Cavalry with....

Barracks + Stables + Civics + 2 GGs

OR

Barracks + Stables + Civics + WP (+ 2GGs you can replace yoru military Civics for Economic ones)

Level 5 Fresh Moutned Units will Allow you to Promote them straight to Blitz for Early Age Tanks!!! *Laughs Evily At poor Civs*

You may want to make an Attempt for a Merchant Economy so a Beeline to Currency after Alphabet (And Possibly Literature for HE and NE) is a good Combination with COLs to fight off those Maintenance cost after those early wars. If you're lucky the capital you capture may have a GM wonder there just waiting for you to Liberate it :p.
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

but seriously, what do we do if there are no horses? Reroll...or conquer?!
:cry: :wallbash: :aargh: :suicide: :badcomp: :deadhorse::faint:

Play with the traits... well play without the UU... you can't help it, or ask the person checking whether the map is isolated or not and ask him are there horses within a reasonable distance.
 
I can see the blood pooling at the feet of your immortals already! But you forgot one of the best features of immortals: They can fortify and receive defensive bonuses, which is huge. Outright they aren't as strong as Egypt's war chariots, but being allowed to fortify makes them more versatile.

the defense bonus is one of the things i love about them. and the 50% vs. archery units isn't only while attacking like the axeman bonus is for all chariot units. if the bad guys want to try to throw arrows at my immortals on forested hills, yeah ok, have at it. they'll lose a lot more archers trying than they would if i was using war chariots. immortals are imba (oops, warlock flashback). they're wicked cute, spinning their spears and all. you'll have a blast as long as you meet a victim in a suitable timeframe.
 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

but seriously, what do we do if there are no horses?
:cry: :wallbash: :aargh: :suicide: :badcomp: :deadhorse::faint:

Please God, don't let there be no horses.

I love the ALC, it's the best thing I've ever seen from the Civ4 community. Kudos, Sisiutil, and many thanks for your tireless service. I'm looking forward to Cyrus, he's right up your alley with the stabbity-stompy and the plunder and whatnot.
 
You also might want to consider early monarchy - with cheap units to boost :) . With the bonus :health: resources available, you could get up some very large cities very quickly, letting you either work more cottages or run more specialists. Plus, big cities provide a big boost to your power rating, so you would be more likely to be able to demand tribute.

(By the way, I notice you almost never demand tribute before declaring war ... if you're pretty sure you're going to finish someone off, why not?)
 
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