Some questions about sumarines from a returning player

Heya gang!

I was gone for a while on some unrelated issues. I came back in, patched up G&K and BNW and all the free DLC and jumped back in about two weeks ago.

I did do searching around for the last 20 mins or so, and I can't seem to find the answers to some questions I have about the submarine and its uses/abilities that don't seem to jibe with the in-game information and the wiki page.

First, it says subs are only visible to other subs, destroyers, and missile cruisers. Otherwise visible, I have found in various other postings, to city attacks/garrisons, to regular vessels when they (the sub) attack (briefly or until they move, I take it?) and in some odd occasions, when in shallow water.

Yet today, I was playing a game where I was at war with someone two continents over. I had a late created sub pop, so I headed it over via autopilot (it was like 5 or 6 turns total to get there) to join the fray.

Halfway there, in the middle of deep water ocean with no shallows and no cities on the screen, and NO OTHER UNITS either, a wooden frigate flying the flag of my adversary began shooting my submerged sub without my attacking him first, at range.

The very next turn, a different sub of mine off the adversary's southern coast get melee attacked in deep water by two ironclads and a privateer, as well as getting shelled by a battleship.

In short....what the FARK? I didn't see anything anywhere about changes to the subs abilities. I checked the in-game tools and they don't indicate ANY of these changes.

Are there any other ... 'adjustments' I should be aware of? I don't see these listed in the wiki either, only in various forums am I finding much of anything, and even that is very, very fragmented.

Thanks in advance for your time

What difficulty were you playing on? AIs get more advantages on higher difficulties

otaman1 said:

What difficulty were you playing on? AIs get more advantages on higher difficulties

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Either Prince or Warlord....I think Prince.

Subs are revealed by an adjacent ship, but can't be spotted from a distance except by destroyers and other subs

Magma_Dragoon said:

Subs are revealed by an adjacent ship, but can't be spotted from a distance except by destroyers and other subs

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Wait....ANY ship that happens to be adjacent will see a sub?

So, if my sub is on auto-pilot and an active enemy Trireme will be able to see and engage me, even if he's restricted to shallows and I 'happen to pass by' in deeps?

(Yea, I know, extreme example, but you get what I'm saying)

Yup.

Aways steer your subs manually when at war.

That seems....well, absurd, but OK I guess.

Does that mean I disappear again if I am outside of local visual range (say, 2 full hexes) when the turn ends?

You'd disappear even if you were a surface ship once you got out of range. I agree w your point though, subs were invented so they wouldn't be seen!


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3 other things to note about subs are:

• They cant attack when garrisoned in a city, don't rush buy subs in a besieged city that is surrounded by naval units.
• They can't attack when under ice
• Any units can see subs if you end your turn whilst adjacent to them, that includes units on land.

There's a bug where if you select the move command for a naval unit and pan your mouse around any units not in your field of vision the hex they are on will highlight in red. I don't know if the AI can take advantage of this when it does it's pathing calculations.

I've had a lot of luck with subs. The advantage is less than it could be, but you are invisible to all units but the 3 mentioned unless you are directly adjacent. As long as you don't sail right next to a city or ship you'll be fine. Most modern boats have a sight range of 2 or even 3 so you are invisible on most of their radar. The main reason they made you appear adjacent is it'd be too OP otherwise. Subs sink ships in like a single shot anyways. If they were entirely invisible unless you moved on top of them on top of the AI's short term memory loss? You could just build 5 subs and wipe out a 100-strong navy with aircraft carriers.

As Nuke subs have 3 and quickly 4 range and great sight you still have an epic advantage.

phillipwyllie said:

They cant attack when garrisoned in a city, don't rush buy subs in a besieged city that is surrounded by naval units.
They can't attack when under ice

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Those two must be changes from GnK to BNW. Did they also fix it so that subs can’t shoot through land?

Subs are weak in defense. The most important promotion for subs is the +1 sight. Always be three hexes away when you fire. Also, careful with the default pathing as the interface would have you hug the coast (bad idea). Land units that disembark can expose your sub too, so watch out for that.

Xaks said:

Wait....ANY ship that happens to be adjacent will see a sub?

So, if my sub is on auto-pilot and an active enemy Trireme will be able to see and engage me, even if he's restricted to shallows and I 'happen to pass by' in deeps?

(Yea, I know, extreme example, but you get what I'm saying)

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I agree. Subs were never designed properly imo. You shouldn't be able to see adjacent subs like this. Also, if a ship happens to wander on/through a tile that a sub happens to be on, it should be subject to a free attack from the sub. This would improve realism and gameplay.

I respectfully disagree as (player) subs are already OP as it is, and I already have enough problems with the AI getting subs several many turns before me. So, maybe it would improve realism, but it would not IMHO improve gameplay. As I recall, with Civ IV enemy ships could move on top your subs? That was annoying too.

In my opinion subs some come automatically with a move after firing promotion as they become visible when they fire or remove them becoming visible after firing or in the worst case make it a chance based system to spot them.

At least it isn't as bad as vanilla where destroyers could see 9 tiles including subs so a destroyer could see you from further tiles away than you could actually move.

My, and from what i have seen many peoples, work around for the disadvantaged position subs are at in the game is to at least have them work in pack so they can destroy any opposition that might have the slightest chance of spotting them and preferably to get 3 sight range.

The devs obviously want subs to be very vulnerable because i am sure in G&K you could get 3 range as well as 3 sight so could shoot while staying out of sight (not revealed when firing) but that promotion appears to have been removed in BNW.