Why do people say that Germany and Japan perform badly?

Any terrain that restricts ranged attacks also stops movement (for 2 move units). Hills or forests that can prevent ranged units for attacking two hexes away also means that melee units have to stop adjacent to the "range ball" and take a volley of attacks before inflicting damage. Hills can remove the line of sight problem for ranged units allowing them to make full use of their range while melee units are slowed down.

Lakes and water limit melee's movement but do not hinder ranged attacks. Mountains block movement and ranged attacks but losing 1 hex out of 6 possible attack locations (for melee) hurts more than losing 1 hex out of 18 possible attack locations (for ranged).


It is much easier for ranged units to focus fire and bring down units than it is for melee units to. There are 18 hexes from which a ranged 2 unit can attack a target. There are only 6 hexes from which a melee unit can attack a target.

If two pikemen get attacks off and kill a composite, it is unlikely that either of the pikes will survive the counter attack. The result is a 2 for 1 trade.


What true for one unit vs one unit is not necessarily true for ten units vs ten units. Spacing and frontage are non-factors in one vs one but become much more relevant at larger unit counts.


Really the smart way to fight is to mix melee and ranged, and use the melee for what melee is for: controlling the battlefield. Not actually attacking with them unless you've a good reason.

A big army of sknekts backed up by a few archers can tear apart a range ball.

Close them in on the outside so the wounded can't retreat. Stick sknekts between them so they can't maneuver, then use your smaller archer army to pick them off one by one.


Basically your sknekts hold them, and your archers and horses punch them while they're helpless.
 
Really the smart way to fight is to mix melee and ranged, and use the melee for what melee is for: controlling the battlefield. Not actually attacking with them unless you've a good reason.

A big army of sknekts backed up by a few archers can tear apart a range ball.

Close them in on the outside so the wounded can't retreat. Stick sknekts between them so they can't maneuver, then use your smaller archer army to pick them off one by one.


Basically your sknekts hold them, and your archers and horses punch them while they're helpless.

If you can close in on them from multiple directions, then I think you've outmaneuvered your opponent and will win almost regardless of the army composition.

Assuming that neither side started out with the strategic positional advantage, I do believe that Machiavelli made the point that range makes outmaneuvering the opponent a lot easier. But if you send composites out there alone and allow them to get surrounded by landsknechts in between them, then you've been outmaneuvered and will probably lose.
 
Trust me, I love spamming ranged units as much as the next guy but landsnecht tear everything apart that is even remotely near their era in tech. Landsnecht produce at such a rate that they can even give xbows a run for their money yet alone composites. Do I want to build an xbow in 3 turns or 3 landsnecht? Not a tough choice. Do I want a University in 6 turns or 6 landsnecht to crush the enemy. Again, no brainer.

Landsnecht war tactics I used:
1. Attack if u can.
2. Can not attack? move forward to empty tile
3. take heal as upgrade.
 
Not sure if anyone said this but. How about this with Germany if maintenace cost is an issue early game when aquiring units from Barb fights. Giving units to CS for influence. Until your ready to rush your neighbor. Then stockpile your troop wins. Rush your neigbor to pay for your Army.
 
If you can close in on them from multiple directions, then I think you've outmaneuvered your opponent and will win almost regardless of the army composition.

Assuming that neither side started out with the strategic positional advantage, I do believe that Machiavelli made the point that range makes outmaneuvering the opponent a lot easier. But if you send composites out there alone and allow them to get surrounded by landsknechts in between them, then you've been outmaneuvered and will probably lose.

It's easier to outmaneuver if you've got sheer numbers on your side.

That's exactly what Sknekts give you. Your armies may be lower quality, but once you've closed them in and they can't maneuver anymore, you'll still win.

The trick is don't use sknekts like you'd normally use a pike. They're there just to take punishment and hold a part of the map. Use your horses and bows to deal the smack down.
 
I'll add that it's usually more about horses, and less about bows. Your sknekts glue themselves to an archer, and maybe soften them up a bit. Then your horse jumps in, finishes him off, and then retreats back behind the sknekts.

Then you can keep rotating your horses, and the enemy has no real way to counter attack them.
 
when i play germany i do normally the following:

my army composition is atleast 40-50% made out of landsknechts (use them as zerglings)

to back them up i got maybe like 20% range mobile units (archers, composites or x-bows) to soften enemy units and kill them afterwards with 2 landsknechts attacks.
15% horse units for pillaging and kill hvy damaged units.

the rest is free. sometimes if i own iron i get some "better melee shields" like longswords or muskets to hold the line. sometimes i need city artillery if they have huge walls n castles (start with trebs or cannons).

the trick is dont let the enemy kill something except sknechts. the rest of your army is the hammer, and the sknechts are the anvil!
 
A brute or archer may cost 200 gold to purchase, but that doesn't mean getting a free brute is "worth" 200 gold. 500 gold early is great because it is enough to buy a worker, settler or ally a city state. While (like you said) 3 brutes early is of marginal value (though 3 archers are nice).

I do agree that Germany's maint discount is pretty good but it isn't enough to make Germany better than below average. I've been working on a mod that alters Germany:

Trait: Realpolitik: +1 Delegate (World Congress) for every Major Civ Capital city they control (including their own).
Building: Colliery (replaces Windmill): Same as Windmill but provides +1 Coal.
Unit: Panzer: Same, but starts with +1 attack.

That... is a very good idea. Balanced too, and interesting. Gives germany a slow start, but then puts them in a good position for a industrial/modern take over of the world. I like it.
 
It's easier to outmaneuver if you've got sheer numbers on your side.

That's exactly what Sknekts give you. Your armies may be lower quality, but once you've closed them in and they can't maneuver anymore, you'll still win.

The trick is don't use sknekts like you'd normally use a pike. They're there just to take punishment and hold a part of the map. Use your horses and bows to deal the smack down.

Actually, I find the opposite: with 1 unit per tile it's a LOT harder to maneuver with numbers. All those Landsknecht's will just get in their own way. It's not like you can send in 12 landsknecht to all simultaneously attack those 6 composites. More likely, only a few of those landsknecht will be able to get in there, then after a round of attacks, a few more will come in, and so on.

If your 12 landsknecht get a surround on my 6 composites, then I deserve to lose that battle. But assuming that they were all coming from the same direction, how many turns is it going to take for your landsknecht to position themselves in that way? I wouldn't just sit their with my composites twiddling my thumbs while your landsknecht pass by to get their surrounding position.
 
I'm not really an advanced gamer, so I'm not in a position to doubt advanced gamers, but I'm curious: why is it?

Germany is one of my favorite ones to play. Of course, I set the map on "Raging Barbarians", so I can get the full benefit. Just take Honor, build a couple of warriors, and I can get my early army for free. (Also super fun to have an axe thrower)

The 25% discount on land units would seem pretty useful, since gold is difficult to get.


Japan - I don't know. Maybe it's all in my head, and Bushido isn't really helping my armies to be effective like I think it is?

Raging Barbarians does not increase the spawn rate of BARB CAMP IIRC, so only the OTTOMONS would actually receive benefit for enabling this option, as their UA is tied to BARB UNITS not BARB CAMPS (as Germany's is).

Germany is actually better with RAGING BARBS set off, as it is only increasing the spawn rate of units, which only increases the time it takes to take a camp (and get benefit from the German UA).

Personally I don't thing these two Civs are quite as bad as people make out. Although there are some issues, I do agree.
 
Among the myriad of complaints posted on this thread (most valid, some not), Germany and Japan additionally suffer from having late-game unique units. Late game units, which you're not likely to see much of, really need to be extraordinary (be very powerful or do something really unique) in order to carry their weight.

Why? Because this game is largely about a snowballing effect. A Jaguar Infantry has been giving the Aztecs bonus movement/damage in rough terrain and heals per kill since the beginning of the game, since the upgrades carry over. By comparison, a late game unit hasn't been doing anything special until you get it. That's a lot of ground to make up if the unit isn't pretty darn spiffy.

And the Zero, at least, is not spiffy. It already sucked in Vanilla, and G&K moving it back into the modern era did it no favors. Add in that Fighters have no decent role in the game (they should be able to directly attack other air units, IMHO), and this...

And zeros' bonus only helps them against other fighters, which means that in single player they won't be more powerful than regular fighters.

Add in that NOBODY builds fighters...not to directly attack anything. The zero has earned the derision among the community. In part, the Zero suffers because Fighters are near useless...but even then it's not a great fighter and comes too late.

G&K also nerfed Bushido hard by creating the 100hp rule (now units are rarely almost dead), and by reducing the penalty for units being damaged.

Japan solely stands on the strength of the Samurai. (Which is a very good unit, but the game does now tend to favor ranged. IMHO, Cover should also increase damage to ranged and siege units.)

Yeah they could keep Bushido,the samurai Unique promotion would be Bushido instead of bonus on flat grounds which i think its not really Historical accurate, Japan is a mountainous land, anyway Bushido is Samurai's Warrior code, they should just stick it on Samurai only.

The flat terrain bonus is what makes the Samurai powerful. The fact that you can pop one and (with a Barracks and an Armory) have an instant Siege promotion...that's the driving force behind Japan. From a gameplay perspective, I don't think you'd at all need to take away the flat terrain bonus - it would kill the usefulness of the unit.

And it's historically accurate enough. Early samurai were actually horsemen with bows (the term "samurai" actually refers to their ability to fire a bow while on a galloping horse). Those samurai would not have been as effective in heavily rough areas. The later, grounded mercenary samurai represented in the game often fought in large forces in battlefields that were akin to the field in Oda's leaderscreen (the Battle of Sekigahara, which completed the unification of Japan, was fought on the flat terrain of the town and not in the nearby hills).
 
Actually, I find the opposite: with 1 unit per tile it's a LOT harder to maneuver with numbers. All those Landsknecht's will just get in their own way. It's not like you can send in 12 landsknecht to all simultaneously attack those 6 composites. More likely, only a few of those landsknecht will be able to get in there, then after a round of attacks, a few more will come in, and so on.

If your 12 landsknecht get a surround on my 6 composites, then I deserve to lose that battle. But assuming that they were all coming from the same direction, how many turns is it going to take for your landsknecht to position themselves in that way? I wouldn't just sit their with my composites twiddling my thumbs while your landsknecht pass by to get their surrounding position.

I'd send a mass up the middle, maybe 5 of them, and then the other 7 would be busy flanking while those 5 engage. If I lose the 5, I can still pin your comps with the remaining 7. But odds are I won't lose the 5. They'll just gather together and go into heal mode (presuming I gave them all medic). If you get close enough to focus your fire on one and kill him in one round, then you're close enough for his 4 buddies to fan out and pin you. If you don't focus your fire on one, they'll be healing fast enough to keep up with your damage.

Then bring up a couple of knights to start dealing the damage.

The point is you'll end up having to choose one of two paths.

1) - Keep your comps spread out so they can't get surrounded.

My 5 cluster will be focus firing on your spread out comps.

2. - Keep your comps in a cluster.

I'll wait until all 7 of my remaining sknekts are in position, and then close them all in at once.
 
The truth is it's hard to envision the battle right without making unfair assumptions about how your comps are going to behave.

In battles vs. the computer, the strategy I'm describing always works. But the computer isn't overly skillful about how it uses its archers.
 
I've been working on a mod that alters Germany:

Trait: Realpolitik: +1 Delegate (World Congress) for every Major Civ Capital city they control (including their own).
Building: Colliery (replaces Windmill): Same as Windmill but provides +1 Coal.
Unit: Panzer: Same, but starts with +1 attack.
That... is a very good idea. Balanced too, and interesting. Gives germany a slow start, but then puts them in a good position for a industrial/modern take over of the world. I like it.
My biggest concern is that it doesn't give Germany enough of a benefit during the early game. Making the panzer replace the land ship would help (even if it is a bit historically inaccurate) but I think I need to give Germany a unique building that will help them pre-Renaissance. I can find another civ who can take advantage of the Colliery.
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Cover should also increase damage to ranged and siege units.)
This can be easily done via mods.
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Even if "balanced" army compositions are more efficient tactically than "range ball" compositions (which is debatable), a balanced army is less efficient strategically because a balanced can not take advantage of timing attacks as easily as a "range ball" can.

Going from composites to crossbows is a huge increase in power. The more of the army that is composed of ranged units the greater, in total, this increase will be. It will take time for a balanced composition to catch up by getting the tech for crossbowmen and knights.

Right after a mass upgrade is when an army has maximum advantage that will degrade over time. This temporary advantage can be turned into a long lasting advantage by attacking and crippling the target. Every turn the army waits for another unit's upgrade to unlock it is wasting its most important turns.
 
I'd send a mass up the middle, maybe 5 of them, and then the other 7 would be busy flanking while those 5 engage. If I lose the 5, I can still pin your comps with the remaining 7. But odds are I won't lose the 5. They'll just gather together and go into heal mode (presuming I gave them all medic). If you get close enough to focus your fire on one and kill him in one round, then you're close enough for his 4 buddies to fan out and pin you. If you don't focus your fire on one, they'll be healing fast enough to keep up with your damage.

Then bring up a couple of knights to start dealing the damage.

The point is you'll end up having to choose one of two paths.

1) - Keep your comps spread out so they can't get surrounded.

My 5 cluster will be focus firing on your spread out comps.

2. - Keep your comps in a cluster.

I'll wait until all 7 of my remaining sknekts are in position, and then close them all in at once.

I think we're just going to go in circles, but I still maintain that it's not as easy to maneuver all those units around as you say. In a real game, there are going to be other obstacles to getting that surround. Maybe there's an ocean, or mountains, or swamps. Maybe it's another civ's territory that you'd have to invade. Maybe it's another one of my cities. You're presupposing that it's just open territory that your pikes could just waltz right through, but that's not the case more often than it is. I was trying to start without any presumed strategic advantages. If you get to assume that your pikes have the Medic promotion, why can't I assume that my composites have Logistics? If you also have knights, why can't I have crossbows? It's just going to go in circles.
 
cmon guys plz back to topic. you do alot of theorycraft to convince other instead of just testing in pratice like i did?

of course melee vs. range combat works totally different. range units profit greatly from guerilla tacs. just shot once and always fall back. at best have some obstacles between you and your target.

in comparison a melee army works totally different. they gain flanking boni, they have higher combat values but they have no attack without getting damaged.

what does this mean in reality ingame. if you shot with range units on different targets u do different damage. i will not explain here in detail how range combat works effectivly, because even my dog already understood this. i guess most knew it since range is regarded as superior (i just show the other way with honor n melee).

the thoughest targets are the hvy melee line because they have a higher combat value (warrior->swords->longswords...), especially if they have the cover promotion. if you are clever you can absorb alot of damage done to them. fortify, fortresses and cover promotions make them nearly untouchable vs missile fire. if u mix in some healing stuff then like medics in the 2nd line or the healing panthenon (totally underestimated!!!) you see the magic! only disadvantage is u need iron.

germany can use this basic knowledge of melee absorbing aswell. but the difference is interesting: you get lower value with the spear n pike line but u can mass units. hello flanking n discipline bonus. also it doesnt really hurt if u do camikaze attacks with them, but they enemy will loose his units with high promotions while u bring in some stuff to fire n forget. meanwhile your well promoted xbows, longswords n knights will do the rest.
 
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Even if "balanced" army compositions are more efficient tactically than "range ball" compositions (which is debatable), a balanced army is less efficient strategically because a balanced can not take advantage of timing attacks as easily as a "range ball" can.

Going from composites to crossbows is a huge increase in power. The more of the army that is composed of ranged units the greater, in total, this increase will be. It will take time for a balanced composition to catch up by getting the tech for crossbowmen and knights.

Right after a mass upgrade is when an army has maximum advantage that will degrade over time. This temporary advantage can be turned into a long lasting advantage by attacking and crippling the target. Every turn the army waits for another unit's upgrade to unlock it is wasting its most important turns.

my biggest concern is did u ever try a game or are you just doing theorycraft? who will w8 for every wpn line to be upgraded. totally unrealistic. a balanced army has maybe a lower attack value but can absorb more damage since melee units will suffer less damage from range fire then range from range....you just try to find more arguments but never played germany really i bet.:eek:

even horsemen can kill xbows, even composites can do damage to xbows. but sknechts will be there too and you will fear them. meanwhile the pressure on your xbows gets harder because of the swarm of cheap n low value units you will loose the drain war. units after units will be pushed back while more n more sknechts will come to you.

in addition if you always look for new arguments, then dont forget that sknechts have the best placement in the tech tree of tier 2 units. civil service is prequiste for education, techlead say hello to mr. bismark...:king:
 
I think we're just going to go in circles, but I still maintain that it's not as easy to maneuver all those units around as you say. In a real game, there are going to be other obstacles to getting that surround. Maybe there's an ocean, or mountains, or swamps. Maybe it's another civ's territory that you'd have to invade. Maybe it's another one of my cities. You're presupposing that it's just open territory that your pikes could just waltz right through, but that's not the case more often than it is. I was trying to start without any presumed strategic advantages.

Places where maneuverability is poor are the best, not the worst, for this strategy.

Properly used, the sknekts advance as a line, rather than a mass. No matter where you attack them, the whole outer front edge of your line will immediately see them glue to you.

The only way to defeat them is to position yourself at a choke point. And even then, sknekts are expendible, so I can launch them like missiles at the defenders.


If you get to assume that your pikes have the Medic promotion, why can't I assume that my composites have Logistics?

Logistics is harder to get than medic. Also even if only a few of my sknekts have it, that will still benefit the ones that don't have it yet as long as they survive.

Also, if I'm lucky enough to build Alhambra, and have a barracks, then every sknekt I make in that city can be born with medic. In order for a ranged unit to be born with logistics, you'd need to be at a point in your tech where they're obsolete anyway.



If you also have knights, why can't I have crossbows? It's just going to go in circles.

More to the point: one hopes you'd bring a few melee with your comps/Xbows, in order to keep my melee at bay.

A pure sknekt army is doomed to failure, but you only need a few horses backing them up to take out a ranged army.

I admit that bows do have the advantage of being able to be effective when not mixed with anything else.


in addition if you always look for new arguments, then dont forget that sknechts have the best placement in the tech tree of tier 2 units. civil service is prequiste for education, techlead say hello to mr. bismark...:king:


Yeah. And the speed you can create them at adds that effect, because you'll have them sooner from that also.
 
Places where maneuverability is poor are the best, not the worst, for this strategy.

Most of the examples I listed (ocean, mountain, another civ's territory) aren't about poor maneuverability, they're about NO maneuverability. It's just very hard with 1 unit per tile to move an army that large. As I mentioned before, the only terrain that benefits melee more than range is a very dense (> 80%) forest/jungle with no hills. If the terrain is swampy (admittedly rare) or hilly (quite common), your landsknecht are toast as their movement will be reduced to 1 while the composites still have a range of 2. Machiavelli already discussed other types of terrain in great detail. What other kinds of terrain do you believe benefits melee more than ranged, and why?

My point about logistics was just to make the minimum assumptions. I don't actually want to make that point, because as I said, we'll go on in circles forever making assumptions. (If you built Alhambra, then I built 6 more crossbows during that time. See how that works?)
 
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