Concentration Camps

Noblosh · Apr 21, 2015

By definition a concentration camp means a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined.

I see how introducing these in Civ5 would be controversial, even if it's just a mod, because people would think of the Holocaust and concentration camps would be seen as glorifying it.

But then I can argue: why is a Hitler's mod acceptable at all?

I personally would be delighted to be able to build CCs as I view them as an important part of history and that's what Civ is about.

I don't know how to successfully make mods or balance them, so I'll propose some ideas on how should CCs be introduced in game but anyone is invited to participate.

3 types of CCs, one for each Ideology:
Extermination Camps - Autocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps)
Internment Camps - Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans)
Labor Camps - Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag)

Extermination Camp:

Increases a city by 10%.
Has a specialist slot.
Eliminates all unhappines points coming from local city's negative public opinion of chosen Ideology.

Internment Camp:

Increases Local City by 2.
Decreases by 5% while at war, if the war was declared by the opposite side and the enemy leader has never asked for a peace treaty since he/she declared war.

Labor Camp:

Has 4 non-specialist slots; each slot provides 2 20% improvement rate (in 3 tiles around the city) 1 10% groth rate when filled.

All CCs require a police station and have high maintenance costs.

DoctorMcGann · Apr 21, 2015

I dunno, the idea really really bothers me. Just feels like a thing that doesn't need representation in civ.

Rob (R8XFT) · Apr 21, 2015

Noblosh said:
But then I can argue: why is a Hitler's mod acceptable at all?

Moderator Action: Not in this forum - if you want to discuss history, please use the OT forum. This is an emotive one. We'll keep the thread open provided the conversation doesn't stray from what the modding of CCs should be - if it starts moving towards a political/historical conversation, it'll be closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

labriejp · Apr 21, 2015

Noblosh said:
By definition a concentration camp means a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined.

I see how introducing these in Civ5 would be controversial, even if it's just a mod, because people would think of the Holocaust and concentration camps would be seen as glorifying it.

But then I can argue: why is a Hitler's mod acceptable at all?

I personally would be delighted to be able to build CCs as I view them as an important part of history and that's what Civ is about.

I don't know how to successfully make mods or balance them, so I'll propose some ideas on how should CCs be introduced in game but anyone is invited to participate.

3 types of CCs, one for each Ideology:
Extermination Camps - Autocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps)
Internment Camps - Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans)
Labor Camps - Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag)

Extermination Camp:

Increases a city by 10%.

Has a specialist slot.

Eliminates all unhappines points coming from local city's negative public opinion of chosen Ideology.

Internment Camp:

Increases Local City by 2.

Decreases by 5% while at war, if the war was declared by the opposite side and the enemy leader has never asked for a peace treaty since he/she declared war.

Labor Camp:

Has 4 non-specialist slots; each slot provides 2 20% improvement rate (in 3 tiles around the city) 1 10% groth rate when filled.

All CCs require a police station and have high maintenance costs.

I think the idea is in bad taste and I won't help write it.

However, my $0.02 - I don't see how any of those camps create happiness.. production, ok, but I don't really think anyone was happy about them.

I know to do mods with ideologies it will require LUA coding/scripting.

janboruta · Apr 21, 2015

I think extermination camps don't have a place in this game. The whole concept is abhorrent and horrifying. I don't know, it evokes many more personal feelings (mostly in the subconscious) than, say, dropping nukes left and right, no matter how wrong or silly it sounds.

As a means of representing history - sure, the camps are fine by me, if it's only fair. But the subject of Nazi (and Japanese, and Boer War British ones) concentration camps is still controversial, so I think it could better be avoided in such a happy and care-free game that Civ 5 is. Civ is much less serious than Total War and Hearts of Iron games, where such a thing could find its place.

The idea you have for the extermination camp is indirectly suggested in JFD's Hitler mod - I think Hitler has a unique list for Great Generals, mostly guys from the SS. Great Generals in this mod can be expended for science.

The two other camp ideas aren't bad, but maybe a bit too specific. And maybe replace the extermination camp with a POW camp for Autocracy to avoid leaving a bad taste.

LeeS · Apr 21, 2015

labriejp said:
I know to do mods with ideologies it will require LUA coding/scripting.

Not to build the 'structures' if they are done as either buildings, wonders, or national wonders

But much of what was outlined in the OP cannot be done directly with XML related to buildings/wonders. Forex, there's (currently) no such thing as an unemployed-citizen-slot that can be attached to a building/wonder.

labriejp · Apr 21, 2015

I do think a POW camp would be a great idea, keep the game realistic and not to specific to directly reference the holocaust.

Natan35 · Apr 22, 2015

labriejp said:
I do think a POW camp would be a great idea, keep the game realistic and not to specific to directly reference the holocaust.

Exactly. CCs arent exactly a thing common to all civs.
(And the idea of having those in game feels horrible)

Protagonist · Apr 22, 2015

I actually had a similar idea once, of including "dystopian" buildings, which were designed to be severe trade-offs (that aren't intended to be worth it most of the time). For example, human-experimenting labs would raise science, but lower growth and create unhappiness.

As for extermination camp, the benefit would probably be a reduced amount of unhappiness, as all the people who publicly show unhappiness with your terrible, terrible regime are being cruelly exterminated. A certain increase in production also makes sense, as such camps force their victims to work.

However, I think there should be negative effects, such as:
-Decreased population growth (perhaps, even reducing population once constructed)
-Raises warmonger rating, as warmonger-hating civs aren't going to want to do business with the kind of monster who exterminates his own civilians en-masse.

onmy6 · Apr 22, 2015

No, I would have to agree with janboruta. Extermination Camp definitely not, Concentration camp, Gulag, no, not in civ anyway, labor camp, re-education camp, P.O.W camp there could be some merit to those possibly. I would use a P.O.W camp but I wouldn't touch rest.

Noblosh · Apr 22, 2015

Ok, let me put it another way: I want those Extermination Camps in game for me, I don't care it offends you as it's not designed for you then.
K, I'm grateful that you express your opinion, it's better than having no answer at all, but you guys take it so personal it becomes offensive.
I want to know what you think about that Hitler mod that I mentioned but you didn't comment about.
And one more thing, I saw that Rob said no history, but I want to say just this: Colosseum = Extermination.

@Protagonist, I agree there must be negative effects, as you can see I tried with Labor Camp. But with warmonging, it's always tricky, I can understand why a warmonger would get furious with another warmonger, it's like challenging his authority, but what if both use these dystopian buildings, should be there any diplomatic penalty with one another?

DoctorMcGann · Apr 22, 2015

...You're offended...that we're offended?

JFD · Apr 22, 2015

Noblosh said:
Ok, let me put it another way: I want those Extermination Camps in game for me, I don't care it offends you as it's not designed for you then.
K, I'm grateful that you express your opinion, it's better than having no answer at all, but you guys take it so personal it becomes offensive.

Then why did you make a thread about it? No less about something you must've known would be controversial.

AW Arcaeca · Apr 22, 2015

I say we all just go by the "if you don't like the mod, then don't use it and stop complaining" rule.

Concentration camps were bad, sure, I think we all agree on that point. They are nonetheless part of history. Labor camps though? I don't think those are any more controversial than slavery, and you (or at least I) don't see too many people complaining about Leugi's Slavery mod. Despite CCs being horrible places , Noblosh still has a right to put them in the game, and we all have the right to not use the mod.

That said, I still won't help make the mod because it frankly doesn't really interest me.

nokmirt · Apr 22, 2015

I like the idea, could use it for Germany in my WWII Europe scenario. Soviet Union as well. I know some people may be upset about this, but as a historian, I never deny history. Sitting there and trying to sweep past events under the rug does not work for me. It happened let's deal with it and make sure it does not happen again.

You could have the extermination camp deal with a pushy neighboring religion somehow. Maybe give it inquisition properties when built or something. Maybe it is not a good idea to even create this. Maybe an internment camp like we had for Japs in WWII. Or a POW camp. Otherwise there will be a lot of grief here. I don't want that. However, this is a game where we do burn entire cities to the ground. We do not think of the moral implications of it. Now do we? Generally I don't.

Noblosh · Apr 23, 2015

JFD said:
Then why did you make a thread about it? No less about something you must've known would be controversial.

Because I was seeking support, not rejection.

ThorHammerz · Apr 23, 2015

Noblosh said:
Because I was seeking support, not rejection.

Then ask yourself: are you creating a mod for your own enjoyment, or for the approval of others? (The last clause is just a nicer way of saying "are you just trying to seek attention"

).

If you feel the idea is interesting, then go ahead and make it (as long as you're not breaking any laws in your country of residence... I think France/Germany/EU countries have some weird laws about creating/spreading stuff that supposedly promotes Nazism or something).

The support (or lack thereof) of an online forum community for a conceptual idea should not be the determinant on whether you move ahead with it or not.

onmy6 · Apr 23, 2015

I don't see what you are crying about, this is a conceptual idea and many have given you good advice, labriejp, janboruta, LeeS, Natan35, Protagonist, AgressiveWimp, nokmirt, ThorHammerz,
all and yet you have picked through anything that could be construed as an attack and dismissed the rest, well good luck Noblosh because it's very hard to learn when you refuse to be taught.

stormtrooper412 · Apr 23, 2015

Personally I don't mind, that stuff happened a while ago and everyone seriously needs to get over WW2.

On a more constructive note: I feel like at this point the Ideology doesn't really reflect the state of your entire civilization as it appears to, so including unique buildings/options/units would definitely be a step in the right direction. As it is, all it does is give you additional social policies and over half of them are useless and never picked

Protagonist · Apr 24, 2015

Noblosh said:
@Protagonist, I agree there must be negative effects, as you can see I tried with Labor Camp. But with warmonging, it's always tricky, I can understand why a warmonger would get furious with another warmonger, it's like challenging his authority, but what if both use these dystopian buildings, should be there any diplomatic penalty with one another?

I actually can see it. They'd either use it as an excuse to hate you, or do it to make themselves "look better". Totalitarian regimes are not above pointing out civil rights problems in other countries, even if their civil rights problems are even worse.

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