Final Fixes Reborn

what were the four or five remaining errors ?

2 times first one and the others, then I will be able to play.

Ok, that one is my mistake. i forgot to commit a file the last time i updated the svn. It's fixed now. (right click on your main folder and choose svn Update)

black_imperator said:

Ok, that one is my mistake. i forgot to commit a file the last time i updated the svn. It's fixed now. (right click on your main folder and choose svn Update)

Click to expand...

Now, all is ok. Thank you. Looking forward to play asap and also see the updates .

So, if you follow the svn releases, you have noted we have expanded on the emergent leader system. Archid has implemented a proper version of the Dynamic Trait Modcomp (based on Greyfox's original plans) and i have merged and expanded it for AoE's use. This modcomp allowed us to make the levelable trait system the emergent leaders were supposed to get a while ago.

Currently we have four leaders that are mostly finalized : Lorelei and Naxus for the Amurites, Gaius for the Bannor and Corane for the Archos. I'd like some feedback on those. (Are their mechanics understandable, are they too easy or too hard to level,... things like that).

Or course, if you have suggestions for other leaders, that's interesting too.

For the next normal release, we want to finalize a few more leaders before that so we're still doing svn updates in the meantime.
(Of course, we are still fixing bugs, i've also started to look at Tholal AI code and do some tests with it, full merge won't be possible but there are parts that we will probably adapt)

Did a clean install, revision 214. Started a game as Gaius. First one crashed to desktop, but I was alt-tabbed so I don't know exactly when. Second one loaded fine, and then my settler was promoted to Aeron's Chosen on turn two. Pls nerf starting settler

EDIT: I can build water elementals, Vault Gates, Shrine of the Champion, and Pax Diabolis. And I can research Seafaring and Swamp-Dwelling. And I have like -16 million gold per turn or something and all my units apparently have an infinite wellspring of experience...so, yeah!

The XP bar is really big. If it could be smaller that would be good. I'm also not sure where to look to find out how to level up Traits.

hmm, ok, i have no idea what's happening there ^^ By clean install, what do you mean ? (rev 214 alone should be enough without any additional download (for civ4 with 3.19))

Edit : what modules are on ?

I'll mention to Ronkhar for the xp bar, i suck as interfaces ^^

Some actions will give xp (by action i mean everything from building certain units, buildings, owning certain plots, killing stuff, razing cities, casting spells,...) Each leader has a different set of actions that can give him point, which are thematic with his background) For now, i want to see if it's really needed to have them being explicit in the pedia or not ^^

Edit2 : did you start a play-now game to clear up your option choices ? (though that shouldn't mess that much)

black_imperator said:

hmm, ok, i have no idea what's happening there ^^ By clean install, what do you mean ? (rev 214 alone should be enough without any additional download (for civ4 with 3.19))

Edit : what modules are on ?

Click to expand...

Just standard, I didn't change or adjust anything. Clean install means I deleted my old AoE folder.

Some actions will give xp (by action i mean everything from building certain units, buildings, owning certain plots, killing stuff, razing cities, casting spells,...) Each leader has a different set of actions that can give him point, which are thematic with his background) For now, i want to see if it's really needed to have them being explicit in the pedia or not ^^

Click to expand...

If there are any that are unusual or require doing something you might not do automatically, it's probably necessary.

Edit2 : did you start a play-now game to clear up your option choices ? (though that shouldn't mess that much)

Click to expand...

Completely fixed the issue.

Playing Naxus, 150 turns in - so far the only thing boosting my Necromancer XP is spamming Summon Skeleton. This is counter-intuitive though since the point of Naxus' skeletons is that they can gain experience; having a bunch of adepts sit and kill/summon skeletons every turn doesn't feel right. I'd maybe instead give XP whenever a unit with Deathwielder or Dark Strength kills something.

I do want to keep giving xp for using spells, but i'll also add a point for skeleton killing stuff.

Edit: I can also remove a point when you lose a skeleton

black_imperator said:

I do want to keep giving xp for using spells, but i'll also add a point for skeleton killing stuff.

Edit: I can also remove a point when you lose a skeleton

Click to expand...

Other things to think about (I don't know what already exists because I'm too lazy to check the code): exploring graveyards and barrows, building the Tower of Necromancy, building Death nodes, contacting, vassaling, or destroying undead civilizations, controlling the Broken Sepulcher. EDIT: Ah, you thought of most of these already.

The benefits are solid, but the gainrate is very slow; in an Epic game, at turn 200 I only had about 60-some xp and that's in large part because I got some Chaos II adepts from an event that fired a couple times. Getting skeletons to kill barbarians is easy enough but 450xp is 450 kills, and that's just to the second level. I'd personally suggest cutting it to something like 150 for the first level - mid to early late - and 400 total for the third level - lategame, when you probably have more methods accessible. Unless some of the bonuses you can get are big chunks, maybe they are. I should probably check the code. Yeah, there are chunks. Should have read the code before posting. It looks pretty good.

I'll try Gaius in a bit.

I'd recommend making spells (except Lichdom, which you can only cast so many times) worth a lot less and permanent actions worth a lot more.

Also, Naxus' Mokka's Cauldron incentive has the same Traithook as the Mines of Galdur.

black_imperator said:

Or course, if you have suggestions for other leaders, that's interesting too.

Click to expand...

Dominant

• Command I for Melee units. Free Mind mana from palace.
• No anarchy. Eating a Blood Pet grants Command I & II to any vampiric unit.
• Converted and Dominated units gain Soul Chains, providing the effects of Loyalty and immunity to fear. Vampires can cast Devour Soul on such units, killing them and giving the vampire a stack of a promotion increasing strength and spell resistance by 1% and spell damage by 1. Stacks up to 20 times.

Illusionist

• Grants the Illusionist promotion to Arcane units.
• Illusions are Strong and provide 3 whenever they kill a unit.
• Free Phantom District in every city you own. Increases and by +1 and city defenses by 15%. Visiting units gain Glamour, which provides a first strike and +33% withdrawal chance and is removed after combat.

Reckless

• Free promotion (Channeling II, Unready) for Arcane units.
• Wizards start with Magic Resistance. +5% .
• Battlemages start with Ambition. +10% .

Viatos said:

Other things to think about (I don't know what already exists because I'm too lazy to check the code): exploring graveyards and barrows, building the Tower of Necromancy, building Death nodes, contacting, vassaling, or destroying undead civilizations, controlling the Broken Sepulcher. EDIT: Ah, you thought of most of these already.

The benefits are solid, but the gainrate is very slow; in an Epic game, at turn 200 I only had about 60-some xp and that's in large part because I got some Chaos II adepts from an event that fired a couple times. Getting skeletons to kill barbarians is easy enough but 450xp is 450 kills, and that's just to the second level. I'd personally suggest cutting it to something like 150 for the first level - mid to early late - and 400 total for the third level - lategame, when you probably have more methods accessible. Unless some of the bonuses you can get are big chunks, maybe they are. I should probably check the code. Yeah, there are chunks. Should have read the code before posting. It looks pretty good.

I'll try Gaius in a bit.

Click to expand...

I'd recommend making spells (except Lichdom, which you can only cast so many times) worth a lot less and permanent actions worth a lot more.

Click to expand...

I can't put less than 1 point for spells, so instead i'll increase the level cap and the bonus for the non-repeatable actions.

Also, Naxus' Mokka's Cauldron incentive has the same Traithook as the Mines of Galdur.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that one.

Viatos said:

Dominant

• Command I for Melee units. Free Mind mana from palace.
• No anarchy. Eating a Blood Pet grants Command I & II to any vampiric unit.
• Converted and Dominated units gain Soul Chains, providing the effects of Loyalty and immunity to fear. Vampires can cast Devour Soul on such units, killing them and giving the vampire a stack of a promotion increasing strength and spell resistance by 1% and spell damage by 1. Stacks up to 20 times.

Illusionist

• Grants the Illusionist promotion to Arcane units.
• Illusions are Strong and provide 3 whenever they kill a unit.
• Free Phantom District in every city you own. Increases and by +1 and city defenses by 15%. Visiting units gain Glamour, which provides a first strike and +33% withdrawal chance and is removed after combat.

Reckless

• Free promotion (Channeling II, Unready) for Arcane units.
• Wizards start with Magic Resistance. +5% .
• Battlemages start with Ambition. +10% .

Click to expand...

Those look good, i especially like Illusionist.

Oh another thing i need ideas for is the Elohims. Through the Dynamic Trait Mechanics, i can now give them a trait when they hold a UF ( contrary to only visiting them as is currently the case). That works better with their Keeper of Holy Places Lore.

So what i need is a bunch of smaller trait effects for them to gain related to the current UFs.

All traits will be unique and have a similar format, for example :

Keeper of the Peaceful Trees : (Requires the Seven Pïnes) disciple units of level 5 gain a free promotion making them grant diplomatic bonuses when near enemy cities. (that's just something i wrote up for an example, not definitive)

re-Elohims : I don't think it interesting to have the trait be specific to a UF: it would be too much dependant on the map script

maybe have it in 3phase but each phase adress each UF.
Here is a quick example:

- Seeker of the Holy places: cities with a Holy Place can have a building that gives +1Commerce+1Culture, and gives +10%str /+10%in borders to unit built.

- warden of the Holy places: each Holy place allows a given promotion to units (with small effect, as ideally you can stack all the promotions of the holy places):
Peaceful Tree : taken by lvl 5 disciple : can enter borders.
Well : +10%vs undead / demons taken at lvl 3 disciple or melee
Mirror: +1 vision range, taken after combat 3
Kashek: +0.2str gem affinity ? free for melee/mounted units, at level 5 for others
Pyre : +2%withdrawal fire affinity

- keeper of the Holy places : holy places each give access to the empire to a "replaçable promotion" given to any unit: like the buccaneer crew: each holy place allows you change specificity of the unit (quite good promotion as each unit can only have one at the same time).
- Keeper of the mirror : any unit : perfect sight effect
- Keeper of the well : +2 death str,
- Keeper of Kaskek : promotion allow "increase production" to unit : all units that chose this are "SoK-like"
...Etc

The initial bonus is a good point to make it worthwhile whatever the UF is.


For the other ideas, i'm not sure if you mean that the promotion is available when an unit is actually visiting the UF or just available from any city when you control the UF.
The first case isn't really possible for the AI to understand without a large rework, the second works normally. Another issue for the AI is the "replacing promo", it always wants to try and get one. (similar issue with crew promos).


apart from that, it's just basically down to how we want to code the system, the 3-level trait with additional prereq on the promotions so that they unlock for each uf , or the one trait per uf unlocking the promotions. (promotions or other bonuses)

Anyway, your small promo effects are exactly the kind of ideas i needed ^^

Can someone let me know what changes have been made to Naxus?

Naxus is now an Emergent Leader ( he was already but he has the system in place now^^).
His Necromancer Trait has three levels, you can level up by doing specific actions linked to his character (use Death Spells, Gain Necromancy Tech, Control Death Mana, Build Forge of Souls Wonder,...)
The Effects of his trait is :

Level 1
Arcane Units Gain the DeathWielder Promo (+2Death Strength and 3% chance to become undead each turn i think, but i don't have the code on me to check).
Free Death Mana on Game Start
after Necromancy, Death Summons Gain Dark Strength .

Level 2
All Undead Units Gain Implacable ( Increased Heal Rate) and 2 Death Strength

Level 3
Double The National Limit of Liches
An Additional Spell DeathMark :
For Three Turns, all enemy living units in range (2 tiles i think) that get killed are banned from resurrection (for those that were valid resurrect targets) and reborn as undead for Naxus

black_imperator said:

The initial bonus is a good point to make it worthwhile whatever the UF is.


For the other ideas, i'm not sure if you mean that the promotion is available when an unit is actually visiting the UF or just available from any city when you control the UF.
The first case isn't really possible for the AI to understand without a large rework, the second works normally. Another issue for the AI is the "replacing promo", it always wants to try and get one. (similar issue with crew promos).


apart from that, it's just basically down to how we want to code the system, the 3-level trait with additional prereq on the promotions so that they unlock for each uf , or the one trait per uf unlocking the promotions. (promotions or other bonuses)

Anyway, your small promo effects are exactly the kind of ideas i needed ^^

Click to expand...

that's what I meant : you get the HP : any unit in the whole empire can take/get the promotion (either as free promotion, or when visiting a city (but to code that you'll need to unlock it by special buildings, or put each promotion in the form of a spell : with a high AI value, the AI will chose the promotion asap).

for the "crew" promotions : I know it's hard to the AI... however that's the best way to manage "OP" promotions in bulk... (for the AI: could it be : "available on the upgrade path, level 0, each promotion being exclusive to each other/ with a flavor to help decide which to chose")
or another way would be: as I said for the AI ; but it opens a spell : "Change Keeper-ship" (only in city) which is enabled by any keeper promotion, and removes your "keeper" promotion, allowing you to re-chose... ... arg... much much xml coding there...

But in the end, maybe instead of the "crew" promotion have a dual thingy:

building available in all empire once Holy Place is in empire : smallish thing (as stackable).
+ "UB of that same building " that is only available in the city next to the holy place.

example :
Keeper of Holy Place:
- Pyre of Seraphic:
allows building "Trial by Fire" : +1culture, 30
in PoS city : "Judgement of Fire" : +1Health, +2 Science, +2culture / gives promotion "burning hands" to any disciple built in city : Burning Hands : +0.5 fire affinity, 20% fire resistance

- Seven Pines
- orchad can be built : +1F, +1H
UB in seven pines city : Silent Orchad : +1F, +1H, +1 spirit mana...

but that's tough to find so many ideas : 2 per HP... especially as RifE added some.