New City States

cybrxkhan · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
Isn't Quebec City directly on the Saint Lawrence River, which allows it to act as a port? Quebec City is also quite close to the sea thanks to that. Mbanza-Kongo is not just inland, but very inland. Again, I don't get the grasping at straws, surely we should be able to keep it simple rather than building these elaborate ideas which are only going to be shattered time and time again?

I'm not grasping at straws, alright, it was just my misunderstanding of geography. As I said I thought Mbanza-Kongo was coastal. If you want to know why I thought that, it was because on an old historical atlas I have due to the size of African Mbanza-Kongo looks like it was close to a river so I had always thought it was coastal. It wasn't some random thought I just thought for no illogical reason.

Menzies said:
Why would it be Mercantile? It's a cultural and religious centre.

It was also a trading center in the region, to my knowledge.

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

cybrxkhan said:
I'm not grasping at straws, alright, it was just my misunderstanding of geography. As I said I thought Mbanza-Kongo was coastal. If you want to know why I thought that, it was because on an old historical atlas I have due to the size of African Mbanza-Kongo looks like it was close to a river so I had always thought it was coastal. It wasn't some random thought I just thought for no illogical reason.

It was also a trading center in the region, to my knowledge.

The Portuguese used it as a hub of sorts, but it in and of itself was not a major trading centre from what I know of it. It would be hugely disappointing if they made it one for a small part of it's history, and to be honest, there are many other choices of city states they could use instead if that really is the case. Surely they wouldn't shoehorn them in like that.

cybrxkhan · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
The Portuguese used it as a hub of sorts, but it in and of itself was not a major trading centre from what I know of it. It would be hugely disappointing if they made it one for a small part of it's history, and to be honest, there are many other choices of city states they could use instead if that really is the case. Surely they wouldn't shoehorn them in like that.

They've had some rather odd choices for CS assignments. Take Budapest, for instance. Personally, I associate Budapest with culture - classical music, nice European architecture, what not. Sure, a militaristic CS works, Hungary was no slouch when it came to the military, but I thought cultural would've made more sense. Warsaw, for instance, might as well have been militaristic instead of cultural due to Poland's powerful military in the early modern era.

Or, take La Venta. We know very little about its people, so why the heck does it become religious? It might as well just be cultural or mercantile for all we know.

Then there's Geneva. I can sort of see why it's religious with Calvinism and all, but I thought that cultural or mercantile would've made more sense.

So yeah, CS choices don't really have to make 100% sense or be the best choice, similarly to the Civs' UAs. Sometimes they're just shoehorned into their type. Which is a little annoying, but that's how it is, at least to me.

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

cybrxkhan said:
They've had some rather odd choices for CS assignments. Take Budapest, for instance. Personally, I associate Budapest with culture - classical music, nice European architecture, what not. Sure, a militaristic CS works, Hungary was no slouch when it came to the military, but I thought cultural would've made more sense. Warsaw, for instance, might as well have been militaristic instead of cultural due to Poland's powerful military in the early modern era.

Or, take La Venta. We know very little about its people, so why the heck does it become religious? It might as well just be cultural or mercantile for all we know.

Then there's Geneva. I can sort of see why it's religious with Calvinism and all, but I thought that cultural or mercantile would've made more sense.

So yeah, CS choices don't really have to make 100% sense or be the best choice, similarly to the Civs' UAs. Sometimes they're just shoehorned into their type. Which is a little annoying, but that's how it is, at least to me.

Generally you can see the logic though.

What we know of La Venta is essential a large ceremonial complex, that fits religious city state.

Budapest (as separate as well) have been key in numerous conflicts throughout history and had been used by the Huns (early in the history of Buda) and the name itself was supposed from the name of Attila's brother. It was also later pillaged by the Mongols and such, but the key is that the city has a long history of war, invasions and being a key point in such conflicts. Militaristic fits it very well in fact.

Warsaw is interesting, but sadly I don't know much about it's history. It has also been taken many times and has a history of war, but not like that of Budapest. I guess it's because it's the cultural centre of Poland, sort of a place holder before Poland was added, but I'm not so sure, maybe someone with a better knowledge of their history could give us some more information.

Long story short, I doubt that it acting as a hub for the Portuguese would be enough to make them a Mercantile city state, and there are surely other options if that's what they were looking for, but we'll see. I would be honestly shocked if they weren't cultural or religiously based in the game.

sukritact · Apr 13, 2013

cybrxkhan said:
Or, take La Venta. We know very little about its people, so why the heck does it become religious? It might as well just be cultural or mercantile for all we know.

I just realised that La Venta should probably be Mercantile. The name does mean "The Sale" in Spanish. That is not a typo, it's sale as in "The shoes are on sale".

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

sukritact said:
I just realised that La Venta should probably be Mercantile. The name does mean "The Sale" in Spanish. That is not a typo, it's sale as in "The shoes are on sale".

It's a ceremonial complex, the name La Venta is not it's traditional name.

You should go on more than a name to get what kind of City State something is.

sukritact · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
It's a ceremonial complex, the name La Venta is not it's traditional name.

You should go on more than a name to get what kind of City State something is.

Spoiler :

From the Met. It reads like it should be a Maritime CS, and I remember reading somewhere that the location was very conducive to trade. I suppose cybrxkhan is right in saying it's unclear.

cybrxkhan · Apr 13, 2013

Some more somewhat nonsensical ones:

Venice is maritime instead of mercantile.

Seoul was cultured even though Korea has had a long history of constantly fighting against invasions and for developing rather innovative military technologies.

Kuala Lumpur, in my opinion, makes more sense as a mercantile CS because it's a center of international business today (although the cultural sort of makes sense with tourism, though it isn't really the main focus of the city to my knowledge).

Although you are right in that one could see the logic behind them, it's more so that there are other choices that are, in my opinion, more logical, although that would be pretty subjective. The fact that it's kind of subjective, or unclear as sukritact puts it, in my opinion, could mean that Mbanza-Kongo could easily be anything but maritime (not near coast, as I have just learned) and religious (none of the CS replacements would be plausible).

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

cybrxkhan said:
Some more somewhat nonsensical ones:

Venice is maritime instead of mercantile.

Seoul was cultured even though Korea has had a long history of constantly fighting against invasions and for developing rather innovative military technologies.

Kuala Lumpur, in my opinion, makes more sense as a mercantile CS because it's a center of international business today (although the cultural sort of makes sense with tourism, though it isn't really the main focus of the city to my knowledge).

Although you are right in that one could see the logic behind them, it's more so that there are other choices that are, in my opinion, more logical, although that would be pretty subjective. The fact that it's kind of subjective, or unclear as sukritact puts it, in my opinion, could mean that Mbanza-Kongo could easily be anything but maritime (not near coast, as I have just learned) and religious (none of the CS replacements would be plausible).

Seoul as cultured made pretty good sense, Seoul wasn't a city known for war as such, but it was the cultural heart of Korea. You wouldn't put a defender as a militaristic city state now would you?

Venice started the game as Maritime before Mercantile City states were added. As there are a set number they couldn't redo them all. The same can be said about Kuala Lumpur.

Think less about the ones from the base game, and less about the distinctions about Mercantile City States. Keep in mind most of the City States started the game in only three categories, and some redistribution was made.

One thing that is interesting though is the total numbers:

Cultural: 10
Mercantile: 10
Maritime: 10
Militaristic: 6
Religious: 6

I have no idea why that's the split, but it is what it is. Maybe it's a balance thing so the game has more of the top 3 when choosing them randomly.

cybrxkhan · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
Seoul as cultured made pretty good sense, Seoul wasn't a city known for war as such, but it was the cultural heart of Korea. You wouldn't put a defender as a militaristic city state now would you?

You earlier said:

Budapest (as separate as well) have been key in numerous conflicts throughout history and had been used by the Huns (early in the history of Buda) and the name itself was supposed from the name of Attila's brother. It was also later pillaged by the Mongols and such, but the key is that the city has a long history of war, invasions and being a key point in such conflicts. Militaristic fits it very well in fact.

Which is basically what I said for Seoul as well - invasions and being pillaged and all that.

Additionally, Hanoi is a militaristic CS, but Vietnam was known throughout its history for being invaded over and over again.

Still I mean this is all nitpicky stuff, I really think that some of the choices were somewhat arbitrary (though not as much as some of the UA choices for the civs), but if you don't buy that I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

sukritact · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
One thing that is interesting though is the total numbers:

Cultural: 10
Mercantile: 10
Maritime: 10
Militaristic: 6
Religious: 6

I have no idea why that's the split, but it is what it is. Maybe it's a balance thing so the game has more of the top 3 when choosing them randomly.

I've mentioned my reasoning for the Religious states, they aren't as useful overall. I'm guessing the Mercantile states have something to do with a hope that the CSs would be more useful for peaceful nations.

Assuming the reasoning is true, then it's unlikely that the number of CSs in each category will change, hence, the CS speculation hypothesis is reasonable.

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

sukritact said:
Spoiler :

La Venta, a small island in the coastal wetlands of the Gulf of Mexico, had a rich array of agricultural and marine resources upon which to build a civilization. Recent excavations have established that small villages in the immediate area were growing maize as early as 1750 B.C., but the site reached its maximum size and importance from 1000 to 500 B.C. It was apparently abandoned by 400 B.C.

From the Met. It reads like it should be a Maritime CS, and I remember reading somewhere that the location was very conducive to trade. I suppose cybrxkhan is right in saying it's unclear.

The site that was of initial interesting (and surely what the city was added for) was the ceremonial complex, the most famous part of the site. You'll also find that pretty much every early city has evidence of agriculture or marine resources, cities tend to form around where there is food. The question is what they are notable for, and as a site, La Venta is known for those ceremonial structures, not the fact that it, like every other ancient city site, had some form of food source.

Are you trying to pick a debate, you've dropped the Mercantile point based solely off the name to now go for Maritime (despite it not being a port from my knowledge, or being a bread basket to anyone else, as Maritime City states act in the game).

Menzies · Apr 13, 2013

cybrxkhan said:
You earlier said:

Which is basically what I said for Seoul as well - invasions and being pillaged and all that.

Additionally, Hanoi is a militaristic CS, but Vietnam was known throughout its history for being invaded over and over again.

Still I mean this is all nitpicky stuff, I really think that some of the choices were somewhat arbitrary (though not as much as some of the UA choices for the civs), but if you don't buy that I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Buda was actually part of those conflicts though, and a base of sorts (again, the name Buda comes from Attila's brother supposedly). This is in stark contrast to merely being a defended of repeated invasions.

I know little of Hanoi, but the cynic in me would guess that it's because of the Vietnam War. I do vaguely remember Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City) being the main cultural centre of Vietnam historically though.

cybrxkhan · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
I know little of Hanoi, but the cynic in me would guess that it's because of the Vietnam War. I do vaguely remember Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City) being the main cultural centre of Vietnam historically though.

IT's not just the Vietnam War, actually. Vietnam's standard historical narrative, to the Vietnamese people, is one of constant defense against invasions (mostly against China, but also that of the Siamese, Cham, French, Mongols, Japanese, and others). Though the choice is indeed influenced probably - maybe even mainly - by the Vietnam War.

JtW · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
Some have suggested Venice on it's own, but I doubt that ever even crossed the developers minds.

Why would you think that? Ed Beach is a big time renaissance afficionado and Venice was at the peak of its power at that time. It was one of important powers in medieval Europe, and would be extremely well suited for the expansion: its commercial focus, its political prowess, and even the St. Mark's Cathedral which is basically an example of "importing" great works from Constantinople. I think that Venice is VERY likely to be one of the new civs.

sukritact · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
Are you trying to pick a debate, you've dropped the Mercantile point based solely off the name to now go for Maritime (despite it not being a port from my knowledge, or being a bread basket to anyone else, as Maritime City states act in the game).

I mentioned the trade part in the second part of my comment. I did state I supposed that ultimately cybrxkhan was correct in saying that it's unclear. I hope that clarifies the statement.

But you're right in saying it isn't coastal, my apologies, I forgot about that. I suppose in that case La Venta makes the most sense being Mercantile or Religious. Going off the wikipedia article alone, definitely religious. I'll concede.

kaspergm · Apr 13, 2013

Menzies said:
Seoul as cultured made pretty good sense, Seoul wasn't a city known for war as such, but it was the cultural heart of Korea. You wouldn't put a defender as a militaristic city state now would you?

I think you can say about pretty much any of the cities included as City States that they were the cultural hub of their region at their height. I don't really think that's an argument in itself.

Menzies said:
One thing that is interesting though is the total numbers:

Cultural: 10
Mercantile: 10
Maritime: 10
Militaristic: 6
Religious: 6

I have no idea why that's the split, but it is what it is. Maybe it's a balance thing so the game has more of the top 3 when choosing them randomly.

I'm pretty sure it's a balance thing - clearly, the fact that they sum up in groups to exactly the same numbers indicates that this is not just a random conincidence. Religious city states have a very different balance than the others in early game, an early first encounter almost guarantees you are free pick of Pantheon, and allying with one can also give you fairly much faith towards founding a religion.

Similarly, having a Militaristic city state new you can have pretty big impact on how game goes, with their ability to gift UU's and all - so I think it makes sense for these to be rarer.

God of Kings · Apr 13, 2013

Regarding militaristic city-states, they also give out unique units of civs not in game if you ally with them. There is a good reason for the limit.

Menzies · Apr 14, 2013

Okay, probably a good time to summarise what we know.

We have 5 confirmed civilizations of the 9:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal

Beyond this we know that they wanted to add Pueblo, and it's unlikely that whoever they chose instead wouldn't being a Native American civilization. In such a case we can, for now at least, assume that the most likely next Civilization is something like a Sioux Civ or another Native American group. The reason for mentioning Sioux directly is that they've been in the game before. For now:

6. Sioux or another Native American civ

Beyond this we have another 3, and we have hints from the city states. As in the first post, we have already account for some changes, but we still have one militaristic city state and one maritime city state unaccounted for. At this point the best guess to make from here is that we can infer the possibilities for 7 and 8 from this. The city states that may have been removed from the militaristic city state list are:

Almaty
Budapest
Hanoi
Sidon
Valletta

From these the most likely would seem to be Almaty with someone like Timur, Budapest with Hungary or Hanoi with Vietnam. Being European Hungary certainly would be a good shout, but with a good chance of female leaders Vietnam is one that really could stick out. I'm going to guess that Malta is not in, but who knows... I could also mention Phoenicia here, but I'll get back to this point. In any case:

7. Vietnam / Hungary / Timur / Malta...

Past this is the Maritime City states that are as of yet not confirmed to be in the game:

Jakarta
Manila
Mombasa
Quebec City
Ragusa
Sydney
Venice

Of these we can effectively rule out it being Mombasa being removed as a Swahili Civilization without Zanzibar (which has already been seen in BNW screenshots) seems very unlikely. I also doubt that the Philippines are really an option, but again, you never know. Croatia is at best a very outside chance, however it may be linked to Venice, but like Phoenicia, I'll get back to this point. So that leaves us with Indonesia, a prime candidate to many, Canada and Australia. So again, as before:

8. Indonesia / Canada / Australia / Croatia / Phillipines

So, there's also three interesting cases now:

1. Phoenicia - Sidon and Tyre (Militaristic and Mercantile)
2. Venice - Venice and Ragusa (Maritime and Maritime)
3. Italy - Venice, Milan, Florence and Genoa (Maritime, Cultural, Cultural and Mercantile)

The interesting point here is about the number of city states replaced. The current distribution of unknown city states doesn't exactly follow these as of yet, but it could. For the sake of reference, if we are at a point with the following, we can guess:

1 Militaristic and 1 Mercantile - Phoenicia (Likely)
2 Maritime - Venice (Weak)
1 Maritime, 2 Cultural and 1 Mercantile - Italy (Very strong)

The brackets here reference how strong I feel it would be should we see those numbers of unexplained city states from here. That is, a militaristic city state and a mercantile one would be quite indicative of Phoenicia, but it could mean two other city states becoming civilizations or some other combination. On the other hand having 2 unexplained Maritime city states (we have one currently) would only being weakly indicative of Venice, and could mean a lot of other things, even... ugh... Canada and Australia... Finally, should we see 4 unexplained city states with the combination mentioned for Italy, it would be pretty much a finger print, if we saw that, it would be almost certainly be Italy, as no other Civilization could replace that many, and so many unexplained new city states would be a strong indicator here.

I'd also again point out that Ragusa is the Croatian city, not the Italian one, although it was intially called the Italian one in the game, that has since been amended (in a patch for Vanilla if I'm not mistaken).

Finally, the point of Mbanza-Kongo. Whilst we don't know what kind of City state it is, we do know that the city is (and was) a religious and cultural centre for the region, far inland and not on a major river (that is, it is not a port). As such the best guess is that it's either a religious or cultural city state. From this we are left with the following options for what it could replace:

Lhasa
Vatican City
Brussels
Bucharest
Florence
Kathmandu
Kuala Lumpur
Milan
Yerevan

Of these, Kuala Lumpur (which from what I know was only founded in the ~1850s) can be ruled out almost immediately, as a Malay civilization is extremely unlikely, especially if Vietnam or Indonesia are in. Nepal and Romania can also probably also be ruled out as well. I doubt the Vatican or Papal states is in, but you never know. Past this we have Tibet, which certainly would be an interesting inclusion, but I still don't see it happening for obvious reasons, although there is a chance. This leaves Belgium and Armenia as the likely candidates, although this could also connect back to Italy, but that's much more complicated as discussed above. So:

9. Belgium / Armenia / Tibet / Papal States / Romania / Nepal / Malay

To repeat the point, Phoenicia, Italy and Venice are all still possible, but the mix of city states (as mentioned above) is still not indicating that. That said, if Mbanza-Kongo is cultural and another Maritime and a Mercantile city state show up, Italy would almost certainly be a new civ. From what we have currently though:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal
6. Sioux or another Native American civ
7. Vietnam / Hungary / Timur / Malta...
8. Indonesia / Canada / Australia / Croatia / Phillipines
9. Belgium / Armenia / Tibet / Papal States / Romania / Nepal / Malay

We can also, based on city states seen so far, rule out:

Olmecs
Israel
Czechs
South Africa
Switzerland
Slovakia
Kongo
Latvia
Sumeria
Bulgaria
Panama
Serbia

From the list, my best guess at the time would be:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal
6. Sioux
7. Vietnam
8. Indonesia
9. Belgium

Here I would imagine Buffalo being the resource that has not been named, but it could be a number of things and could have a number of implications as mentioned elsewhere. From the city states seen though, that would be my best guess, we'll see though.

Evie94 · Apr 14, 2013

Menzies said:
Okay, probably a good time to summarise what we know.

We have 5 confirmed civilizations of the 9:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal

Beyond this we know that they wanted to add Pueblo, and it's unlikely that whoever they chose instead wouldn't being a Native American civilization. In such a case we can, for now at least, assume that the most likely next Civilization is something like a Sioux Civ or another Native American group. The reason for mentioning Sioux directly is that they've been in the game before. For now:

6. Sioux or another Native American civ

Beyond this we have another 3, and we have hints from the city states. As in the first post, we have already account for some changes, but we still have one militaristic city state and one maritime city state unaccounted for. At this point the best guess to make from here is that we can infer the possibilities for 7 and 8 from this. The city states that may have been removed from the militaristic city state list are:

Almaty
Budapest
Hanoi
Sidon
Valletta

From these the most likely would seem to be Almaty with someone like Timur, Budapest with Hungary or Hanoi with Vietnam. Being European Hungary certainly would be a good shout, but with a good chance of female leaders Vietnam is one that really could stick out. I'm going to guess that Malta is not in, but who knows... I could also mention Phoenicia here, but I'll get back to this point. In any case:

7. Vietnam / Hungary / Timur / Malta...

Past this is the Maritime City states that are as of yet not confirmed to be in the game:

Jakarta
Manila
Mombasa
Quebec City
Ragusa
Sydney
Venice

Of these we can effectively rule out it being Mombasa being removed as a Swahili Civilization without Zanzibar (which has already been seen in BNW screenshots) seems very unlikely. I also doubt that the Philippines are really an option, but again, you never know. Croatia is at best a very outside chance, however it may be linked to Venice, but like Phoenicia, I'll get back to this point. So that leaves us with Indonesia, a prime candidate to many, Canada and Australia. So again, as before:

8. Indonesia / Canada / Australia / Croatia / Phillipines

So, there's also three interesting cases now:

1. Phoenicia - Sidon and Tyre (Militaristic and Mercantile)
2. Venice - Venice and Ragusa (Maritime and Maritime)
3. Italy - Venice, Milan, Florence and Genoa (Maritime, Cultural, Cultural and Mercantile)

The interesting point here is about the number of city states replaced. The current distribution of unknown city states doesn't exactly follow these as of yet, but it could. For the sake of reference, if we are at a point with the following, we can guess:

1 Militaristic and 1 Mercantile - Phoenicia (Likely)
2 Maritime - Venice (Weak)
1 Maritime, 2 Cultural and 1 Mercantile - Italy (Very strong)

The brackets here reference how strong I feel it would be should we see those numbers of unexplained city states from here. That is, a militaristic city state and a mercantile one would be quite indicative of Phoenicia, but it could mean two other city states becoming civilizations or some other combination. On the other hand having 2 unexplained Maritime city states (we have one currently) would only being weakly indicative of Venice, and could mean a lot of other things, even... ugh... Canada and Australia... Finally, should we see 4 unexplained city states with the combination mentioned for Italy, it would be pretty much a finger print, if we saw that, it would be almost certainly be Italy, as no other Civilization could replace that many, and so many unexplained new city states would be a strong indicator here.

I'd also again point out that Ragusa is the Croatian city, not the Italian one, although it was intially called the Italian one in the game, that has since been amended (in a patch for Vanilla if I'm not mistaken).

Finally, the point of Mbanza-Kongo. Whilst we don't know what kind of City state it is, we do know that the city is (and was) a religious and cultural centre for the region, far inland and not on a major river (that is, it is not a port). As such the best guess is that it's either a religious or cultural city state. From this we are left with the following options for what it could replace:

Lhasa
Vatican City
Brussels
Bucharest
Florence
Kathmandu
Kuala Lumpur
Milan
Yerevan

Of these, Kuala Lumpur (which from what I know was only founded in the ~1850s) can be ruled out almost immediately, as a Malay civilization is extremely unlikely, especially if Vietnam or Indonesia are in. Nepal and Romania can also probably also be ruled out as well. I doubt the Vatican or Papal states is in, but you never know. Past this we have Tibet, which certainly would be an interesting inclusion, but I still don't see it happening for obvious reasons, although there is a chance. This leaves Belgium and Armenia as the likely candidates, although this could also connect back to Italy, but that's much more complicated as discussed above. So:

9. Belgium / Armenia / Tibet / Papal States / Romania / Nepal / Malay

To repeat the point, Phoenicia, Italy and Venice are all still possible, but the mix of city states (as mentioned above) is still not indicating that. That said, if Mbanza-Kongo is cultural and another Maritime and a Mercantile city state show up, Italy would almost certainly be a new civ. From what we have currently though:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal
6. Sioux or another Native American civ
7. Vietnam / Hungary / Timur / Malta...
8. Indonesia / Canada / Australia / Croatia / Phillipines
9. Belgium / Armenia / Tibet / Papal States / Romania / Nepal / Malay

We can also, based on city states seen so far, rule out:

Olmecs
Israel
Czechs
South Africa
Switzerland
Slovakia
Kongo
Latvia
Sumeria
Bulgaria
Panama
Serbia

From the list, my best guess at the time would be:

1. Poland
2. Assyria
3. Brazil
4. Zulu
5. Portugal
6. Sioux
7. Vietnam
8. Indonesia
9. Belgium

Here I would imagine Buffalo being the resource that has not been named, but it could be a number of things and could have a number of implications as mentioned elsewhere. From the city states seen though, that would be my best guess, we'll see though.

great post. i expect it to pan out like that, maybe Belgium subbed out for a completely random Civ. Belgium fit with the SFA scenario very well though, and are a fairly interesting Civ to boot

New City States

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Menzies

Asian Xwedodah

Menzies

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Menzies

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Asian Xwedodah

Menzies

Asian Xwedodah

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Prince

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Deity

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