Ideologies revealed

Which ideology seems strongest?

  • Autocracy

    Votes: 46 28.0%

  • Freedom

    Votes: 61 37.2%

  • Order

    Votes: 57 34.8%
  • Total voters
    164
El Caballerion said:
Why is UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE part of all of them?
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Now that the U.S is moving in that direction what argument is there that it shouldn't be in all of them. The U.S was really the only 'Freedom' power that I can think of off hand didn't have it anyways
 
It's a bit late but I'm disappointed that they still kept the three ideologies as Autocracy = WWII Axis Powers, Freedom = Western democracies, Order = Cold War China/Russia. It would be nice if they updated it a bit to reflect the distinctions between the more dynamic capitalism of the US, the stronger safety net of Europe and the centrally planned capitalist/socialist hybrid being practiced in China and East/Southeast Asia.
 
I think the different tenets provide a bit of variation. While 2 civs may both have Freedom, they will have different bonuses.
 
Rajjah said:
If you want an unhappy society then remove the ability to get a loan from a bank and say goodbye to owning a home, a car, an education, and many other quality of life enhancers.

It you want an unhappy society then remove the mints and we can go back to bartering and or localized currency that does not have backing, say goodbye to wealth security.

If you want an unhappy society then get rid of the stock exchange and eliminate the system that supports most peoples retirement plans, the multiplication of wealth through the middle class and the mechanism for the the most vibrant economies in the last century.

If anything Capitalism should be a more powerful tenet based on how fundamental economic 'freedom' is.
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With you up until you got to the Stock Exchange. The idealized vision of the stock market doesn't really match up with reality very well. Middle-class investors get fleeced on the stock market and always have; in recent years, even larger institutional investors (e.g. the pension plans you mention) have also been screwed over.

In any event, "free markets" and "capitalism" don't mean the same thing. I think freer markets generally make people happier. Capitalism only ever makes a select minority richer.
 
wigwam said:
In any event, "free markets" and "capitalism" don't mean the same thing. I think freer markets generally make people happier. Capitalism only ever makes a select minority richer.
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Communism makes a select minority richer. Crony capitalism also makes a select minority richer but capitalism makes everyone richer.
 
lrdscorpio said:
Now that the U.S is moving in that direction what argument is there that it shouldn't be in all of them. The U.S was really the only 'Freedom' power that I can think of off hand didn't have it anyways
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both the US and western Europe is heading toward Order. It is not realistic for Universal Healthcare to be in the freedom tree but I have no problem with it being in the freedom tree because gameplay > realism.
 
Red Pearl said:
Communism makes a select minority richer. Crony capitalism also makes a select minority richer but capitalism makes everyone richer.
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Capitalism makes the average person richer, yes. In the last thirty years, in the United States (my homeland), it has made the median worker poorer.
 
I like that within each ideology there are the different flavors
that represent the spectrum
Freedom~ American French or English variants
Order~ Soviet, Chinese, or many modern welfare states
Autocracy ~ Germany , the Axis powers and 3rd world dictators from the Americas to Asia

While it is true that in the modern world there aren't that many examples of autocracy and pure order among the major nations I like to think of our particular game of civ as a victory for the Freedom Ideology
 
lrdscorpio said:
Now that the U.S is moving in that direction what argument is there that it shouldn't be in all of them. The U.S was really the only 'Freedom' power that I can think of off hand didn't have it anyways
Click to expand...

Red Pearl said:
both the US and western Europe is heading toward Order. It is not realistic for Universal Healthcare to be in the freedom tree but I have no problem with it being in the freedom tree because gameplay > realism.
Click to expand...

Universal healthcare might be a political topic in the USA, but in much of the rest of the world it's just something that a developed country has, and only the specifics are political (tax funded like the british NHS vs compulsory insurance like Germany for example). I don't think it should be an ideological tenet any more than Public Roads or Sewage System.
 
wigwam said:
Capitalism makes the average person richer, yes. In the last thirty years, in the United States (my homeland), it has made the median worker poorer.
Click to expand...

I would suspect Pearl would call the current state of affairs in the US crony capitalism (and he'd be right). Any system where Walmart can pay full time employees less than a livable wage and leave the responsibility of ensuring these people don't starve to the taxpayer can hardly be considered laissez-faire.

Pretty sure there's never been a truly hands off capitalist system in the real world actually, corporate welfare has existed as long as corporations have.
 
GoodSarmatian said:
Universal healthcare might be a political topic in the USA, but in much of the rest of the world it's just something that a developed country has, and only the specifics are political (tax funded like the british NHS vs compulsory insurance like Germany for example). I don't think it should be an ideological tenet any more than Public Roads or Sewage System.
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Universal healthcare is even part of 1948's United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 25), but the US was one of the few countries that hasn't ratified article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Concerning universal healthcare the US is the exception to the rule.
 
Which is exactly why universal healthcare doesn't make sense as a tenet: everyone has it so it seems odd to be thrown in with the other elevated ideals that define their ideologies and make up the other tenets. If anything it should be an Order tenet (since it's socialism that is common sense enough that everyone else picked it up too) or a National Wonder you can build after getting hospitals up.
 
Anybody else a bit worried about 'Space Procurements'?

Seems a little OP for my liking!? Gold will be very easy to get late game...
 
Everything about Freedom is just stupidly strong. It's the only ideology that is suitable for every victory condition and the tenets within it are just fantastic. Order's spaceship engie rush is pretty strong too, sure, but a Freedom civ could potentially finish Apollo and then win the game in two turns if they've got the cash.
 
Arachnofiend said:
Which is exactly why universal healthcare doesn't make sense as a tenet: everyone has it [...]
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As ideologies are an industrial/modern thing, you could say that universal healthcare is a tenet not so much for specific ideologies, but more a tenet for developed civs in general in contrast to pre-industrial civs.
 
kamex said:
Anybody else a bit worried about 'Space Procurements'?

Seems a little OP for my liking!? Gold will be very easy to get late game...
Click to expand...

I found that tech, rather than building spaceship parts, is the bottleneck for a Science victory. So you might buy the last part or the last two parts and shave 5 turns or so off your launch date. Of course, rushing spaceship parts allows for a bit more even tech development rather than beelining Rocketry, like you have to do now, so it might be useful in that respect.
 
Arachnofiend said:
Everything about Freedom is just stupidly strong. It's the only ideology that is suitable for every victory condition and the tenets within it are just fantastic. Order's spaceship engie rush is pretty strong too, sure, but a Freedom civ could potentially finish Apollo and then win the game in two turns if they've got the cash.
Click to expand...

Freedom seems a bit strong and has the best synergies with all the specialist oriented tenets, but I think Order will actually be better for a space victory. As Calouste said, tech is more important than production for a space victory and Worker Faculties basically gives your whole civ a 25% research boost if you don't have any puppets, and my guess is that Five-Year Plan will do more for your spaceship production that Space Procurement. I also believe that the true strength of Spaceflight Pioneers doesn't lie in the ability to rush with GEs but rather in the 10 :c5science: in the capital (most likely before modifiers) which can be a big deal for tall empires.
And since I mentioned synergies: Commerce tree + Big Ben + Skycrapers could mean that an Order civ in the late game will be able to buy most of the expensive buildings and focus production on wonder spamming.
The only thing I don't like about Order is that it has the most obviously useless tenet we know: Resettlement. Who founds new cities in late Industrial/Modern ? It's even tier 2 so there'S virtually no way to get it while it could be useful. I hope this gets changed before or after release to something boosting internal trade routes oe just a growth bonus for your smallest cities.
 
wigwam said:
Capitalism makes the average person richer, yes. In the last thirty years, in the United States (my homeland), it has made the median worker poorer.
Click to expand...

Yep thats the point: a small, realy small, group of people gets extremely rich and the vast majority gets extremely poor. The banks hide that by giving out loans, that provide people with things that make them feel rich, but in the end it makes them even more poor.

So basicaly, banks and stockmarkets should give x unhappyness and y happyness, but y should allways be lower then x.
 
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GoodSarmatian said:
Freedom seems a bit strong and has the best synergies with all the specialist oriented tenets, but I think Order will actually be better for a space victory. As Calouste said, tech is more important than production for a space victory and Worker Faculties basically gives your whole civ a 25% research boost if you don't have any puppets, and my guess is that Five-Year Plan will do more for your spaceship production that Space Procurement. I also believe that the true strength of Spaceflight Pioneers doesn't lie in the ability to rush with GEs but rather in the 10 :c5science: in the capital (most likely before modifiers) which can be a big deal for tall empires.
And since I mentioned synergies: Commerce tree + Big Ben + Skycrapers could mean that an Order civ in the late game will be able to buy most of the expensive buildings and focus production on wonder spamming.
The only thing I don't like about Order is that it has the most obviously useless tenet we know: Resettlement. Who founds new cities in late Industrial/Modern ? It's even tier 2 so there'S virtually no way to get it while it could be useful. I hope this gets changed before or after release to something boosting internal trade routes oe just a growth bonus for your smallest cities.
Click to expand...

Resettlement could be useful when you are going for domination and find yourself lacking resources. You may find yourself without uranium and need to send a settler to that crappy two-tile snow island at the bottom of the map.

...Of course, that's very situational and even if you do find yourself in that situation it's probably not the best idea to burn a tenet to make the city slightly less terrible.
 
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