Proportional Representation

In Canada there are viable 3rd parties. Not to win overall, but to hold significant power in parliament, and using FPTP various provinces have elected third party governments (as much as Ontario would like to purge that from memory) and there are plenty where three or four parties have a shot.

Too bad that power is largely worthless as measured by their ability to produce change and/or force their agenda.
 
Its not like the Conservatives can do much better right now (especially when they shut the government down). The Bloc and NDP have as much power as the Liberals and there have been concessions by since the minority governments were formed.
 
Hey, the Nationals are still a party.

Technically not. The National Party gets a reasonable number of seats. The Coalition is not a single party in most states.

Based on where things are heading, we have two major parties, but two notable minor parties. The UK has two and a half parties, we have two and two thirds.

Yeah of course I know the Nationals still exist. I just don't think they affect my analysis at all.

I mean really, they've been in coalition for 60 years, they're nearly indestinguishable from the Libs, and only keep winning seats because the Liberals let them (of the current 10 Nationals seats, the Libs ran in none of them... the Libs and Nats both ran in Dawson which the ALP picked up in 07). What I find weird is the Libs tolerating the Nats running against them in seats like Barker (SA) and O'Connor (WA) whilst giving them a free pass in other seats.

If the Liberals hypothetically cut the Nats loose over some policy dispute (say, climate change... incidentally, hilariously enough the Farmers Federation agreed with Turnbull, not the Nats on emissions trading) and chose to run against them they'd probably almost wipe them out in the lower house and still get their preferences in the Senate. The Nationals will be dead, merged, or irrelevant as a federal lower house party within 2 decades or so. The new DLP, perhaps.

I think we can consider them functionally one party for the purposes of analysing the impact of single member electorates and two party systems. They share a caucus for gods sake. If they had any balls they would have fought a lot harder on things like Telstra and the AWB, their bread and butter issues.
 
Its not like the Conservatives can do much better right now (especially when they shut the government down). The Bloc and NDP have as much power as the Liberals and there have been concessions by since the minority governments were formed.

Hmm, never thought of the Liberals as having been relegated to 3rd party status.

Minority governments -- this one in particular -- are a lot worse than I thought! :ack:
 
Hmm, never thought of the Liberals as having been relegated to 3rd party status.
They aren't. They are the only one with a chance of forming a government besides the Conservatives (the NDP might get there if Ontario gets over Mr Rae, which goes to show the major problem for the Grits, a united right vs a divided left), but the way the seats are distributed means that the Conservatives have control with any one of the other three parties for support, or a small segment of one of them. After all, they only need 10 votes. Hence the Bloc, NDP, and Liberals hold equal power, any one sides with the Tories or they all work together.

The problem is that Canadians and our politicians are too used to majority governments. The Tories have repeatedly tried acting as a majority government (though they usually back down before the push too far) and that whole squabble about a Coalition "coup" would have been outrageous anywhere with a tradition of minority governments.
 
The current circumstances make it such that they effectively are, but yeah, over the long term they might still be considered as one of the main contenders for the executive branch of government.

I don't get how political tradition matters at all to Canadians, but then again, I might be underestimating just how conservative* people are wrt to its political institutions.. :think:

*A more generously flattering term to what I'm thinking, but will ascribe benefit of the doubt to.
 
I don't get how political tradition matters at all to Canadians, but then again, I might be underestimating just how conservative the RoC really is wrt to its political institutions..
Huh? I don't get this. And RoC? Taiwan? I don't see where they could come into this.
 
Rest of Canada, outside of Quebec. That was in response to the coalition bit, whereby RoCers especially were hostile to the idea of a coalition, being used to a majority gov't and all.
 
Yeah my Territory (I don't live in a state) has a minority government right now, thanks to the proportional representation system. We've a 17 member unicameral legislative assembly and it's Labor with Green support and input into several departments (like transport and planning). Most of its 20 year history has seen parties governing without majorities. It's a weird counterpoint to politics in any of the states except Tasmania.
 
Rest of Canada, outside of Quebec. That was in response to the coalition bit, whereby RoCers especially were hostile to the idea of a coalition, being used to a majority gov't and all.
Well, I don't know how hostile they were outside of Tory strongholds. Even where there was opposition, it was generally from completely uninformed people who believed that a coalition is wrong, or was entirely directed against working with the Bloc (which the Conservatives are quite willing to do). The Tories spun the qhole thing quite we..

I don't think we particularly care about our tradition in politics. The NDP has governed 5 provinces and a territory since 1991 and was in opposition in Alberta (which was run by a third part, the SoCreds, for 40 years). And shifts are fairly common. The biggest thing is we are used to majorities. Few lasting periods of minority rule make us expect the government to act as a majority government and not expect coalitions.
 
It would be tricky to talk to everyone in a system of millions. Humans are complex so it's hard to imagine 100 or even a 1000 people represent that value accurately. That 100 or 1000 people have a hard time representing themselves sometimes.

Honesty intended.

It would lead to even a bigger question. Should a government represent you at all?
 
It strikes me that most of the arguments made against Proportional Representation lean heavily on a certain sort of mentality cultivated by non-proportional systems, such as the apparent obsession with "Winners" and "Losers",
Why not? The above mentality is accurate.

A lot of people in here keep pointing out "but we want to give representation to more parties". How many parties are involved in a decision is irrelevant. Whether you have just the Republicans winning a decision with 51% of the vote, or the Reps and the Libertarians winning with 51%, or FIVE political parties forming a coalition to win with 51%, the problem remains--a vote still only needs 51% to win, and the number of ACTUAL PEOPLE receiving representation does not go up. And that's what we want: to give political representation to more PEOPLE. Am I wrong on that??

Prop Rep does not solve that problem.

Edit: Raising the bar, requiring a higher percentage of votes to win, doesn't work either. Say you raise the victory line from 51% to 60%. Then it only takes 40 votes, instead of 50, to block something from being passed. It gives more political power to a smaller number of people. Which, I think we all agree, is a step in the wrong direction.
 
But that 51% isn't actually representing 51% of the people. People who want Greens in the US will vote for Democrats just to make sure Republicans don't get in, but that doesn't mean the Democrats represent their interests.
In multi-party systems, you can actually vote for whom you feel best represents your interests, and not feel like it is a wasted vote.
 
And minority governments have to negotiate with everyone. Basketcase's "people still get shut out" complaint is much reduced when there's prop-rep with a minority government.

Using my own Territory government as an example again, since Labor doesn't have a majority it needs to negotiate with either the Liberals or Greens. And it does so on different issues. Being the government the ALP still calls most of the shots, but none of the 3 parties are entirely shut out of the process in the way that happens with majority governments.
 
Well, I don't know how hostile they were outside of Tory strongholds. Even where there was opposition, it was generally from completely uninformed people who believed that a coalition is wrong, or was entirely directed against working with the Bloc (which the Conservatives are quite willing to do). The Tories spun the qhole thing quite we..

The ordeal was a real eye-opener for me, as I wasn't expecting the kind of contempt expressed therein from our politics. Oh well..

I don't think we particularly care about our tradition in politics. The NDP has governed 5 provinces and a territory since 1991 and was in opposition in Alberta (which was run by a third part, the SoCreds, for 40 years). And shifts are fairly common. The biggest thing is we are used to majorities. Few lasting periods of minority rule make us expect the government to act as a majority government and not expect coalitions.

Looking up the SoCreds through Wikipedia, they're apparently classified as 'Conservatism, Populism, Social credit, social conservatism, Christian right'. The PCs of Alberta are ambiguously classified under 'Conservatism', which may or may not be a shift in name only.. I recall an Albertan CFC member making a comment on it being the case. :sad:

Speaking of tradition, and perhaps tangentially related to the thread topic, I'm more disappointed by the fact that electoral reform failed thrice in BC, Ont., and PEI referenda for either STV or MMP. Reasons being, IIRC, was the complexity of these new systems :confused. I'd be curious to know how electoral reform managed to become reality in countries with a more advanced voting system than FPTP, such as in Europe, Australia, etc. if anyone could oblige. :)
 
In Australia it's been that way for nearly 100 years and probably before that in some of the colonies. Preference voting was introduced in about 1920ish specifically to allow the 2 conservative parties to run against each other in the same seats without splitting the anti-Labor vote.

We've also had compulsory voting since 1925.
 
Looking up the SoCreds through Wikipedia, they're apparently classified as 'Conservatism, Populism, Social credit, social conservatism, Christian right'. The PCs of Alberta are ambiguously classified under 'Conservatism', which may or may not be a shift in name only.. I recall an Albertan CFC member making a comment on it being the case.
My knowledge is solely on the early the SoCreds and the Social Credit movement itself. Though there were strong religious connections "Bible Bill" Aberhart and his partner Manning were a radio evangelists, this was not a strictly conservative group. The key policies were strong anti-poverty campaign, had labour backing, included efforts to redistribute wealth. Though most of their policies were stopped by the federal government and the courts before they could be implemented. I really don't know where they went during and after WWII.
Part of the problem is that the party doesn't really fit into our current spectrum

Remember that in the first half of the century, the West was a liberal haven, promoting welfare and other such "liberal" and socialist values and reform in general (the CCF and Douglas is Saskatchewan, and United Farmers in Alberta and elsewhere). The Baptist church (which Aberhart and Manning were associated with) was, along with other non-Anglican protestants, a driving force behind development of relief organizations, government assistance, and the welfare state, so religious didn't necessarily have the same conservative meaning.

Note, when I say Conservative and Liberal in this post, I am not referring to the parties.

I'm more disappointed by the fact that electoral reform failed thrice in BC, Ont., and PEI referenda for either STV or MMP. Reasons being, IIRC, was the complexity of these new systems
In Ontario with MMP, some people didn't understand it (and its supporters tend to overstate this as the cause of its defeat IMO), but many, such as myself voted against it because we understood and opposed it. I do not support proportional representation. I am opposed to any promotion of election based on party lists. Each individual should be elected. 63% of the votes were against it, taking 102 of 107 ridings, a pretty decisive defeat.

True, as I posted before, I see huge benefits of a proportional representation, but I also see the huge downside with respect to strengthening party lines and decreasing the freedom elected officials. At the same time, decreasing representation of smaller organizations from a riding (even with MMP we would have larger ridings).

I may be able to support an instant runoff while maintaining our current single member ridings, it would take some consideration though (currently I would benefit from it federally and get hurt provincially, so that isn't the basis of my position).
 
WHAT IS PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION

AND WHY DO WE NEED THIS REFORM?


Douglas J. Amy

Mount Holyoke College

Americans continue to be disillusioned with politics. Cynicism about candidates and parties runs high and voter turnout is abysmally low. A number of proposals designed to revitalize American elections have been made, including term limits and campaign finance reform. But a new reform is also beginning to get some attention: replacing our present single-member district, winner-take-all election system with proportional representation (PR) elections. Political commentators writing in The Washington Post, The New Republic, The New Yorker, The Christian Science Monitor and USA Today have endorsed this reform. Grassroots groups in several states are now organizing to bring proportional representation to local elections. Leaders of most alternative parties, including the Libertarians, the Greens, and the New Party, are also pushing for a change to PR. And many in the voting rights community, including Harvard Law professor Lani Guinier, have concluded that proportional representation would be the best way to give minority voters fair representation.

So why all this sudden interest in proportional representation? What exactly is PR, how does it work, and what are its advantages over our present system? Describing how it works is simple. Proportional representation systems come in several varieties, but they all share two basic characteristics. First, they use multi-member districts. Instead of electing one member of the legislature in each small district, PR uses much larger districts that elect several members at once, say five or ten. Second, which candidates win the seats in these multi-member districts is determined by the proportion of votes a party receives. If we have a ten-member PR district in which the Democratic candidates win 50% of the vote, they would receive five of those ten seats. With 30% of the vote, the Republicans would get three seats. And if a third party received the other 20% of the votes, it would get the remaining two seats. (For more information on the various types of PR systems, see How Does PR Work?.)

At first glance, this voting process might seem a bit strange to many Americans. We are used to our single-member district system, in which we elect one candidate in each legislative district, with the winner being the candidate with the most votes. But while we view this winner-take-all system as "normal," in reality our approach to elections is increasingly at odds with the rest of the world. The vast majority of Western democracies see American-style elections as outmoded and unfair and have rejected them in favor of proportional representation. Most of Western Europe uses PR and a large majority of the emerging democracies of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have chosen PR over our form of elections. The United States, Canada, and Great Britain are the only Western democracies that continue to cling to winner-take-all arrangements.

The Problem with Single-Member District Elections

The single-member district voting system has been on the wane worldwide because it has a number of serious drawbacks. It routinely denies representation to large numbers of voters, produces legislatures that fail to accurately reflect the views of the public, discriminates against third parties, and discourages voter turnout. All of these problems can be traced to a fundamental flaw in our system: only those who vote for the winning candidate get any representation. Everyone else -- who may make up 49% of the electorate in a district -- gets no representation.

We are all familiar with this problem. If you are a Democrat in a predominately Republican district, or a Republican in a Democratic one, or an African-American in a white district, then you are shut out by our current election system. You might cast your vote, but it will be wasted on a candidate that can not win. In the 1994 elections for the U.S. House of Representatives, more than 26 million Americans wasted their votes on losing candidates, and so came away from the voting booth with no representation. Under single-member district rules we may have the right to vote, but we don't have the equally important right to be represented.

To make matters worse, this denial of representation on the district level often produces distortions in representation in Congress and our state and local legislatures. Parties often receive far more (or far fewer) seats than they deserve. For example, in the 1996 elections for the U.S. House of Representatives, the Democrats won 66 percent of votes in Massachusetts, but received 100% of the states ten seats. The Republicans cast 33% of the vote, but they were all wasted and they received no representation. That same year in Oklahoma, Republican won 61% of the vote and won all six seats. The distortion of representation was even worse in Washington State, where the Republicans took second place with 47% of the vote, but won 67% (six out of nine) of the House seats. Americans have become used to this kind of political injustice, but citizens in most other democracies are not willing to put up with it.

Proportional representation has been widely adopted because it avoids an outcome in which some people win representation and the rest are left out. Under proportional representation rules, no significant groups are denied representation. Even political minorities, who may constitute only 10-20 per cent of the voters, are able to win some seats in these multi-member districts. In PR systems, nearly everyone's vote counts, with 80-90 per cent of the voters actually electing someone, compared to 50-60 per cent in most U.S. elections. Under PR, we can also be sure that our legislatures will accurately reflect the voting strength of the various parties. If a party receives 40 per cent of the vote, it will get 40 per cent of the seats, not 20 percent or 60 percent as can happen now with our system.

More Choices for Voters

The unfairness of winner-take-all elections and the advantages of proportional representation are particularly obvious when we consider the situation of third parties in the U.S. Voters are increasingly dissatisfied with the offerings of the two-major parties and recent surveys indicate that over 60 per cent of Americans would now like to see other parties emerge to challenge the Democrats and Republicans.

Voters are showing increasing interest in alternatives such as the Reform party, the Libertarian party, the Greens, and the New Party.. But under our current rules, none of these parties stands a realistic chance of electing their candidates. Winner-take-all elections require candidates to receive a majority or plurality of the vote to win, and minor party candidates can rarely overcome that formidable barrier. This plurality barrier explains why even though we have had over a thousand minor parties started in the U.S. during the last two hundred years, virtually all have died out relatively quickly.

Adopting PR would finally allow for free and fair competition between all political parties. Supporters of minor parties are forced to either waste their vote on a candidate who cannot win; vote for the lesser-of-two-evils among the major party candidates; or not vote at all. In short, single-member district elections are rigged against minor parties and serve to unfairly protect the major parties from competition.

This problem would end under proportional representation, which is designed to ensure that all political groups, including minor party supporters, get their fair share of representation. Minor parties would need only 10 or 20 per cent of the vote to elect a candidate. Under PR, many minor parties would quickly become viable and we would have a truly competitive multi-party system. This would give American voters what they say they want: a much greater variety of choices at the polls.

Offering voters more choices would also encourage higher levels of voting. People would have more reason to vote because they could more easily find a candidate or party they could support enthusiastically. Voters would also know that their vote would not be wasted, but would count to elect the candidate of their choice. Because of such inducements, voters in PR countries typically turnout at rates of 70-80 per cent, compared to 50 per cent or less in the U.S. Voting systems are not the only factor that affects turnout, but it can be a significant one. Voting systems scholars estimate that adopting PR in the U.S. would increase voter participation by 10-12%, which would translate into millions of more voters at the polls.

A multi-party system would also ensure that our city, state, and federal legislatures represented the variety of political perspectives that exist in the electorate. Our society is becoming more politically heterogeneous, and yet our legislatures are made up of the same old Republican and Democratic politicians. Some of our widespread political malaise might disappear is we had policy-making bodies that reflected the diverse perspectives in the electorate. More representative legislatures would foster more exciting and wide-ranging political debate and inject new ideas into decision making.

Solving our Voting Rights Problems

Another major advantage of proportional representation is in the area of voting rights. Harvard Law professor Lani Guinier and others have argued that PR would be the best solution to the continuing problem of how to ensure fair representation for racial and ethnic minorities in the U.S. Currently, supporters of voting rights are facing a difficult dilemma. The Supreme Court has cast doubt on the constitutionality of creating special minority-dominated districts. These districts have been the main avenue by which minorities have increased their representation in Congress over the past few decades. But if we abandon this approach, how do we avoid going back to the old white-dominated districts, in which minority candidates have little or no chance of being elected?

The way out of this situation is to realize that it exists only if we must use winner-take-all districts, where how the district lines are drawn determines whether whites or minorities will be represented in a particular district. The solution is to abandon single-member districts and use proportional representation. Then it wouldn't matter if minorities were submerged in majority white districts, they could still elect their own representatives. Assume, for example, that whites made up 80 percent of the voters in a five-seat PR district and blacks made up the remaining 20 percent. Even if everyone voted along racial lines, the African Americans would still be able to elect one representative. Studies have shown that in Cincinnati and other places where proportional representation have been used in the United States, they have produced fairer representation for racial and ethnic minorities. Proportional representation would ensure fair representation for both whites and minorities, and do so without creating special districts. (For more on this issue, see "Fair Representation for Racial Minorities: Is Proportional Representation the Answer?")

Better Representation of Women

Proportional representation also carries other significant political advantages. For example, PR can result in fairer representation for women. The United States continues to lag far behind many other Western democracies in the number of women elected to our national legislature. The percentage of women elected to the U.S. House of Representatives continues to hover around 13% while in many other countries that figure for their lower houses is 20%, 30% and even 40%. Many factors affect the number of women elected in a country, including such things as cultural attitudes toward the role of women in society and politics. But there is widespread agreement among scholars that voting methods are another key factor that affects the level of female representation in a political system.

Experts note that the clearest demonstration of the effect of voting systems on women’s representation can be seen in countries like Germany and New Zealand that use the mixed-member form of proportional representation. Under this system, half of the members of the parliament are elected in single-member plurality districts and the other half chosen by party list proportional representation. (See How Does PR Work? for more details on this system.) In the 1994 German election, the percentage of women elected in the single-member districts was 13%--about the same as in the United States--while the number elected from the party list PR contests was 39%. In New Zealand in 1996, those numbers were 15% for single-member district contests and 45% for party list PR.

What explains this effect? Scholars have found that many more women tend to be nominated in countries using PR voting; and the more women are nominated, the more they win office. Instead of nominating one person per district, a slate of candidates is nominated in these multi-member PR districts. In a five-member district, for example, each party nominates five candidates. If a party includes two women on their slate, and the party wins three seats, there is a good chance of at least one woman being elected. If a party were to put only men on their slate, that would immediately be noticed. The party would be inviting charges of sexism and would risk alienating the feminist vote. So with PR voting there is some inherent pressure on the parties to nominate more women for office. The adoption of PR in the U.S. would be one of the most effective ways to quickly increase the number of women in elected office.

Eliminates Gerrymandering

Another advantage of proportional representation is that it would greatly reduce or eliminate the problem of partisan gerrymandering -- one of the scourges of the single-member district system. Currently, districts lines are usually drawn to create district majorities that favor certain parties or incumbents -- a cynical exercise designed to cheat some parties out of their fair share of seats. However, as mentioned earlier, how district lines are drawn in PR systems usually has no significant impact on representation. If the multi-member PR districts are sufficiently large (five or more seats), it doesn't matter whether a party is a majority or a minority -- all parties receive their fair share of seats. So, under PR rules, the drawing of districts lines would no longer be a way of determining who gets represented or which party controls the legislature.

PR Has a Proven Track Record

But can we be sure that proportional representation would really result in all of these positive changes? The actual impacts of new political innovations are notoriously difficult to predict. However, PR is not a new and untried idea; it has a long track record in other Western democracies. Political scientists studying these countries have found that virtually all of them have enjoyed high voter turnout rates, vigorous multi-party competition, fair representation for political, ethnic and racial minorities, and practically no gerrymandering. And no serious movement exists in any of these countries to trade in PR for American-style elections.

Proportional representation's record in other countries also serves to dispel the myth that adopting such a system would result in legislatures racked by conflict and plagued by deadlock. Most legislatures in countries using proportional representation are ruled by a coalition of parties, and some fear that these coalitions are liable to be unstable and to lead to weak and unproductive government. In reality, however, almost all PR countries have enjoyed stable coalition governments. In Scandinavia, for instance, some of these multi- party coalitions have lasted for decades. And these large coalitions have commonly passed legislation far more efficiently than our Congress does.

A few countries, notably Italy and Israel, have had trouble with unstable coalitions. But both of these countries have used extreme forms of proportional representation. Israel, for example, allows any party that gets more than about 1 per cent of the vote to win seats in their parliament. At times this low threshold has resulted in over a dozen parties in the Knesset, which has complicated the task of governing. However, most other PR countries use more moderate forms of PR that have a higher threshold and fewer parties. Germany has a five per cent threshold that results in a workable legislature of 3-5 parties. This moderate PR is what proponents are advocating for the U.S.

Worldwide Interest in Voting System Reform

Given the many advantages of PR, it is not surprising that the general worldwide trend during the last 100 years has been away from winner-take-all voting systems and toward various forms of PR. That trend continues even today. As mentioned earlier, a vast majority of the emerging democracies in Eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union, and Africa have ended up rejecting American-style plurality voting in favor of various forms of proportional or semi-proportional voting systems.

In addition, in the last few years a number of established democracies have debated voting system change and adopted PR systems. During the 1990s New Zealand abandoned single-member plurality elections for mixed-member proportional representation, and Japan changed from its unique single non-transferable vote system to a mixed system. Even Great Britain, the original home of our single-member district system, has seen an intense political discussion of voting system options. In 1998, a commission appointed by Prime Minister Tony Blair completed a study of voting systems, and recommended that a national referendum be held to choose between their traditional plurality voting system and a new system that included aspects of proportional representation. In fact, PR systems have already been introduced in some elections there. In 1999, when Scotland and Wales had elections for their newly created parliaments, they both chose to use forms of proportional representation instead of the traditional single-member plurality system. And in the most recent round of elections for representatives to the European Community, Great Britain switched to a PR voting system there as well. Given this general trend in voting system reform, it is not surprising that the issue of proportional representation is finally being raised in the United States.

Implementing PR in the United States

Here in the U.S., proportional representation would be easiest to acquire on the local level, where modifying a city charter is usually all that is necessary. For that reason, much of the grassroots political activity promoting PR has taken place on the local level. For example, in the 1990s, two large cities -- Cincinnati and San Francisco -- voted on referendums to adopt PR. Both efforts were narrowly defeated, with PR garnering the support of almost 45% of the voters in both cases.

Proportional representation also is feasible for Congressional elections. The Center for Voting and Democracy in Washington, D.C. has developed plans for Georgia and North Carolina that demonstrate how easy it would be to create multi- member PR districts for U.S. House elections. Importantly, such plans would not require a constitutional amendment. All that would be needed is to repeal a 1967 federal law requiring single-member district elections for the House, and several bills have been introduced in Congress that would do just that. In fact, with the approval of the Department of Justice under the Voting Rights Act, some states already are using PR in local elections, and minorities are using this system to elect their fair share of representatives.

The debate over proportional representation is just beginning in this country; but it is an idea who time has come. If we want our elections to be fairer and more democratic, and if we want voting to become a more powerful and meaningful political act, then we should take a long and careful look at this reform.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/polit/damy/BeginnningReading/whatispr.htm
 
Top Bottom